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Koranic Arabic and modern standard arabic

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28 messages over 4 pages: 1 2 3 4 
WH2010
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 5173 days ago
13 posts - 52 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 25 of 28
27 December 2010 at 12:29am | IP Logged 
William Camden wrote:


The introduction to FSI Saudi Arabic specifically states that Najdi is relatively close
to Classical Arabic, and is favoured by the Saudi royal family.


Do you favor your native language simply by speaking it at home? I know it comes from
the FSI book, but it's not a correct way to describe the situation. The Saudi royal
family does not favor any dialect.

Yes, I agree that it is relatively close. What I was trying to say was that, in
addition to Najdi (in its traditional form), the rural dialects of 'Asir, southern
Hejaz, and parts of northern Yemen are also very conservative.

Quote:
Also, the Wikipedia article on Najdi notes that unlike many Arabic dialects,
Najdi does not appear to have a non-Arabic substratum underlying it (whereas Coptic
underlies aspects of Egyptian Arabic, for example, and there appear to be Aramaic
influences on Levantine Arabic). It may, in that sense, be closest to Classical
although this is no doubt a disputable point.


Yes, this is true, but it also applies to the other dialects I mentioned above. I'm
not disputing you, I'm just adding some additional information for the benefit of the
OP.

Quote:

Urban Hejazi does seem to be a good choice if you are looking for a widely understood
colloquial version of Arabic.   


Yes. Also, the one thing that Urban Hejazi shares with Quranic/MSA Arabic that the
other dialects do not is the "internal" short vowels (in contrast, other dialects in
Arabia employ a lot of consonontal clusters and do not allow CvCvCv to occur, where
v=short vowel).
2 persons have voted this message useful



WH2010
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 5173 days ago
13 posts - 52 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 26 of 28
27 December 2010 at 1:02am | IP Logged 
Huliganov wrote:
[
Out of interest, do any of the main pillars of Islam get viewed differently by Shia and
Sunni?


The Sunnis have five pillars (the creed, the five daily prayers, alms giving, fasting
of Ramadhan and pilgrimage to Mecca). The Shi'ites (specifically, the Twelvers who
make up the majority of Shi'ites) don't have "five pillars;" they have 5 "roots" and 12
"branches." The 12 branches include 4 of the Sunnis' five pillars, but after that
things get much more complicated.

Quote:

Do either of them officially believe that God didn't literally make the earth, but that
he used evolution for example (as per the Papal encyclical making evolution kosher for
Catholics)?


No, evolution is a recent discovery, and no traditional Islamic scholars (equivalent to
Jewish Rabbis) have incorporated evolution into the Islamic creation story as far as I
know. There are of course many individual Muslims who have found a way to reconcile
evolution with the Quran, but this is not a sectarian issue.

Quote:

Do either of them go to a different place for Hajj


They both go to Mecca for Hajj. However, the Shi'ites also make pilgrimage to Najaf
and Karbala in Iraq, which to them is equivalent to a Hajj to Mecca if not superior.
Devout Sunnis try to be buried in Medina or Mecca, while devout Shi'ites try to be
buried in Najaf (which is why Najaf claims to have the world's largest cemetery!).

Quote:

or pray in a different direction than the other?


No, but Shi'ites prostrate on a disc of clay (symbolizing the earth of Karbala, where
Al-Husayn was martyred). Shi'ites prefer not to pray on rugs. Shi'ites pray in a
slightly different way from Sunnis.

Quote:

Do they pray at different times of day or have services where the Koran is recited in
languages other than Arabic?


Sunnis pray 5 times a day; Shi'ites make it 3 times a day (by doing 2 at a time after
the first prayer). Sunnis are strongly encouraged (technically, required) to pray in
congregations. Most Shi'ites believe in individual prayer until the 12th imam
reappears. That's why Sunni religious life revolves around the mosque whereas Shi'ite
religious life revolves around either the grave of one of their saints or special
religious buildings called "Husayniyyas." There has been a recent split among Shi'ites
between the traditional quietists who don't even hold Friday prayers in the absence of
the 12th imam and reformists who do hold Friday and congregational prayers (though they
still don't view it as required).

Sunnis have a different law of inheritance from Shi'ites, and Shi'ites allow for
"temporary marriage," which Sunnis abhor.

Sunnis have two holidays (the Eids) and some may celebrate the Prophet's birthday.
Shi'ites celebrate the same holidays, but they put much, much greater emphasis on other
Holy days, notably Ashura (where they gather in the thousands and flagellate themselves
in memory of the martyrdom of Husayn) and Ghadiir (the day they believe Muhammad
appointed Ali as his successor).

The successorship to Muhammad is not simply a political matter for Shi'ites, as you may
believe, but rather a theological one. They believe that an imam is divinely appointed
and is infallible. The imam's word is equal to the Quran, and any government not
sanctioned by the imam or (in our age) not believing in and acting on behalf of the
hidden imam is illegitimate

There are also theological issues, like divine will, divine justice, free will and
predestination, the attributes of God, etc. that Shi'ites differ with Sunnis on (and
that Sunnis differ on amongst themselves). Shi'ites believe that recognizing the imam
is condition to salvation, which Sunnis, obviously, do not believe.

Anyway, this all relates to the Twelver Shi'ites (when people say "Shi'ite" they
usually refer to the Twelvers). But Shi'ism is actually three sects:

(1) Twelvers
(2) Zaydis
(3) Ismailis

Zaydis do not believe in divine appointment or in the infallibility of the imam, which
makes them in many ways closer to Sunnis, but they follow Shi'ite law in most matters
and celebrate Shi'ite holidays.

Isma'ilis are the gnostics of Islam. Most devout Sunnis and Shi'ites do not even
consider them Muslim. They believe in inner meanings and outer meanings to the Quran
and in exotic beliefs like divine emanations. They are also divided into a
traditionalist sect that follows some Islamic rituals like fasting and another sect
that does not follow any Islamic rituals and don't even have mosques (they believe the
Quranic verses on prayer, fasting, etc. to be symbolic). The Ismailis do not follow
Islamic law for the most part, deeming it unnecessary. There are millions of Ismailis
today in India, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Syria, and in the 9th century they ruled most
of the Muslim world.

The Twelvers themselves are divided into quietists (let's lay low till the emergence of
the 12th imam who will avenge us from the Sunnis) and the activists (the 12th imam is
waiting for us to prepare the way for him).

There are also Alawites or Nusayrids, who grew out of the Twelvers. These are the sect
that the president of Syria belongs to. They believe that Ali was God himself. They
have a version of the trinity with Ali and two other men and celebrate Christmas and
Easter. They don't have mosques and don't read the Quran or follow Islamic law. Their
scriptures are secret. Yet despite all of this, they call themselves Muslims and they
have close ties with the mainstream Twelvers.

Sunnis themselves are divided into fundamentalists/literalists (much like Christian
Puritans), traditionalists, Sufis (mystics), liberals/reformers, all kinds of other
currents. There are different schools of theology dating from the Middle Ages with
different views on who goes to heaven, where evil comes from, is hell eternal, do we
have any free will, when is it permissible to rebel against an unjust ruler, etc. etc.
etc.

So, yes, if you study it closely enough, it is as diverse as one would expect a
religion spanning three continents and 1400 years to be.

Edited by WH2010 on 27 December 2010 at 1:02am
10 persons have voted this message useful



Huliganov
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 Message 27 of 28
31 December 2010 at 10:58pm | IP Logged 
WH2010 wrote:
Huliganov wrote:
[
Out of interest, do any of the main pillars of Islam get viewed differently by Shia and
Sunni?


The Sunnis have five pillars (the creed, the five daily prayers, alms giving, fasting
of Ramadhan and pilgrimage to Mecca). The Shi'ites (specifically, the Twelvers who
make up the majority of Shi'ites) don't have "five pillars;" they have 5 "roots" and 12
"branches." The 12 branches include 4 of the Sunnis' five pillars, but after that
things get much more complicated.

Quote:

Do either of them officially believe that God didn't literally make the earth, but that
he used evolution for example (as per the Papal encyclical making evolution kosher for
Catholics)?


No, evolution is a recent discovery, and no traditional Islamic scholars (equivalent to
Jewish Rabbis) have incorporated evolution into the Islamic creation story as far as I
know. There are of course many individual Muslims who have found a way to reconcile
evolution with the Quran, but this is not a sectarian issue.

Quote:

Do either of them go to a different place for Hajj


They both go to Mecca for Hajj. However, the Shi'ites also make pilgrimage to Najaf
and Karbala in Iraq, which to them is equivalent to a Hajj to Mecca if not superior.
Devout Sunnis try to be buried in Medina or Mecca, while devout Shi'ites try to be
buried in Najaf (which is why Najaf claims to have the world's largest cemetery!).

Quote:

or pray in a different direction than the other?


No, but Shi'ites prostrate on a disc of clay (symbolizing the earth of Karbala, where
Al-Husayn was martyred). Shi'ites prefer not to pray on rugs. Shi'ites pray in a
slightly different way from Sunnis.

Quote:

Do they pray at different times of day or have services where the Koran is recited in
languages other than Arabic?


Sunnis pray 5 times a day; Shi'ites make it 3 times a day (by doing 2 at a time after
the first prayer). Sunnis are strongly encouraged (technically, required) to pray in
congregations. Most Shi'ites believe in individual prayer until the 12th imam
reappears. That's why Sunni religious life revolves around the mosque whereas Shi'ite
religious life revolves around either the grave of one of their saints or special
religious buildings called "Husayniyyas." There has been a recent split among Shi'ites
between the traditional quietists who don't even hold Friday prayers in the absence of
the 12th imam and reformists who do hold Friday and congregational prayers (though they
still don't view it as required).

Sunnis have a different law of inheritance from Shi'ites, and Shi'ites allow for
"temporary marriage," which Sunnis abhor.

Sunnis have two holidays (the Eids) and some may celebrate the Prophet's birthday.
Shi'ites celebrate the same holidays, but they put much, much greater emphasis on other
Holy days, notably Ashura (where they gather in the thousands and flagellate themselves
in memory of the martyrdom of Husayn) and Ghadiir (the day they believe Muhammad
appointed Ali as his successor).

The successorship to Muhammad is not simply a political matter for Shi'ites, as you may
believe, but rather a theological one. They believe that an imam is divinely appointed
and is infallible. The imam's word is equal to the Quran, and any government not
sanctioned by the imam or (in our age) not believing in and acting on behalf of the
hidden imam is illegitimate

There are also theological issues, like divine will, divine justice, free will and
predestination, the attributes of God, etc. that Shi'ites differ with Sunnis on (and
that Sunnis differ on amongst themselves). Shi'ites believe that recognizing the imam
is condition to salvation, which Sunnis, obviously, do not believe.

Anyway, this all relates to the Twelver Shi'ites (when people say "Shi'ite" they
usually refer to the Twelvers). But Shi'ism is actually three sects:

(1) Twelvers
(2) Zaydis
(3) Ismailis

Zaydis do not believe in divine appointment or in the infallibility of the imam, which
makes them in many ways closer to Sunnis, but they follow Shi'ite law in most matters
and celebrate Shi'ite holidays.

Isma'ilis are the gnostics of Islam. Most devout Sunnis and Shi'ites do not even
consider them Muslim. They believe in inner meanings and outer meanings to the Quran
and in exotic beliefs like divine emanations. They are also divided into a
traditionalist sect that follows some Islamic rituals like fasting and another sect
that does not follow any Islamic rituals and don't even have mosques (they believe the
Quranic verses on prayer, fasting, etc. to be symbolic). The Ismailis do not follow
Islamic law for the most part, deeming it unnecessary. There are millions of Ismailis
today in India, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Syria, and in the 9th century they ruled most
of the Muslim world.

The Twelvers themselves are divided into quietists (let's lay low till the emergence of
the 12th imam who will avenge us from the Sunnis) and the activists (the 12th imam is
waiting for us to prepare the way for him).

There are also Alawites or Nusayrids, who grew out of the Twelvers. These are the sect
that the president of Syria belongs to. They believe that Ali was God himself. They
have a version of the trinity with Ali and two other men and celebrate Christmas and
Easter. They don't have mosques and don't read the Quran or follow Islamic law. Their
scriptures are secret. Yet despite all of this, they call themselves Muslims and they
have close ties with the mainstream Twelvers.

Sunnis themselves are divided into fundamentalists/literalists (much like Christian
Puritans), traditionalists, Sufis (mystics), liberals/reformers, all kinds of other
currents. There are different schools of theology dating from the Middle Ages with
different views on who goes to heaven, where evil comes from, is hell eternal, do we
have any free will, when is it permissible to rebel against an unjust ruler, etc. etc.
etc.

So, yes, if you study it closely enough, it is as diverse as one would expect a
religion spanning three continents and 1400 years to be.


Many thanks for that. It showed me that there is more than meets the eye and you should really write a book about this because even the books I have read are less able to bring these differences home than you have been.
1 person has voted this message useful



ic32987
Groupie
United States
Joined 6341 days ago
50 posts - 54 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 28 of 28
05 January 2011 at 5:14pm | IP Logged 
I would actually be very interested in some recommended reading, WH2010 (or others). From
the reading I have done, including required reading from university level history courses
covering Islam, most of these things are not covered. Any good sources?


1 person has voted this message useful



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