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Me lleva vs me llevo | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 25 of 44 30 December 2010 at 12:40am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
But (at the risk of complicating things) that requires the form "*prepararme me lleva mucho tiempo" to exist -- you can't have an "inverted form" of a form that doesn't exist, surely? (And the Spanish corpus doesn't seem to think it exists.) Also, why would the infinitive need to be analysed as a noun here? I've only seen this sense of "llevar" with verbs. It seems most logical to me that if you can't replace it with a noun, it must be functioning as a verb. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5882 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 26 of 44 30 December 2010 at 1:04am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Too many people get hung up on rules and constantly asking why, like they're trying to make it make sense with their own language.
All this talk about indirect object, which is the subject, etc. Making it way too complicated. All you have to do in this case is accept the fact that llevar works like gustar here and you're done. Get used to it, it's how it's spoken. I'm a native English speaker and I couldn't explain half of the grammar that we use, I just know how we speak. No big deal either. I remember early on when I was first learning Spanish and I wanted to know why this and why that. Pretty soon I just started to accept how people spoke and that was that. If it's how they speak, it's good enough for me. Like I've said before, you have to have rules to get you going but pretty soon you have to focus on what you're hearing and what you're reading. That is if the goal is to actually speak the language with native speakers. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Raчraч Ŋuɲa Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5819 days ago 154 posts - 233 votes Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese | Message 27 of 44 30 December 2010 at 1:22am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Ok, ealier I said that I haven't encountered an infinitive used as a subject with object pronoun attached to it, but a while a go I've seen examples in the web: El prepararme para esta competencia hizo que realizara cambios en mi vida. Preparing myself for this competition made me carryout changes in my life. El prepararme con anticipación me permitió demostrar que el objetivo no era alcanzar la cima.. Preparing myself with anticipation allowed me to prove that the objective was not to reach the top... But prepararme in these examples have an "el" prior to them, signalling that they're nouns. This can't be said of this sentence in contention. Me lleva mucho tiempo prepararme. Preparme me lleva muche tiempo. Changing the word order doesn't make the first phrase the subject, unlike English or French: Ramon recibio el premio. Recibio Ramon el premio. Recibio el premio Ramon El premio Ramon recibio. And even your inversion is not possible since the the sentence is a V+V construction (llevar + prepararse) because there is no determiner before the second verb, like "el".
There are 2 types of sentences in those examples, those that use a copular verb (ser) and those that use a psych verb (gustar/disgustar). If the verb is ser, it's ok for infinitives to be the subject without "el", in other cases, a determiner is needed to disambiguate if the infinitive is governed by the main verb or if it is a noun argument of the verb (subject or object). Quoting an "authority" does not make their example right. In the above quote, it gives examples of infinitives as subjects, such as : Me gusta leer. "I like to read." OR "Reading pleases me." OR "To read pleases me." If "leer" is a subject here, then why translate as "I like to read"? and not just those other two? It is because this is closer to the more grammatically faithful translation which is "It pleases me to read.". It doesn't mean that "Reading pleases me." or "To read pleases me." are incorrect translation, they're correct but have already undergone transformation in English.
First, gustar is psych verb, so there is neither action nor actor, only experiencer here. Second, actors and experiencers does not have to be the subject. Spanish allows experiencers to be direct objects ("me" ) since they are passive and affected by the subject, which is "el alemán". As tractor already said, the more faithful translation is "German pleases me" rather than "I like German.". Edited by Raчraч Ŋuɲa on 30 December 2010 at 2:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Raчraч Ŋuɲa Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5819 days ago 154 posts - 233 votes Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese | Message 28 of 44 30 December 2010 at 1:43am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The action that takes a long time is "lleva". Do you mean that is the subject? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5346 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 29 of 44 30 December 2010 at 4:18am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Perhaps from a grammarian's point of view. If you were translating a novel though and rendered "me gusta el alemán" as "German pleases me" your editor would probably replace you with another translator, as the feel of the phrase would be distorted. Regarding the rest, the German language doesn't determine who likes it or not, as being an inanimate entity it is devoid of discrimination; it is I, the subject, upon whom the capacity for liking German and many other languages rests. Language is not a logical construction but a carrier of meaning. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Raчraч Ŋuɲa Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5819 days ago 154 posts - 233 votes Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese | Message 30 of 44 30 December 2010 at 5:02am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
You're right. Translations need to be idiomatic and have the right feel. So what is the right translation of "German pleases me." to Spanish? I've been wanting to ask that for a long time. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 31 of 44 30 December 2010 at 5:39am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
To say that something can't exist because it doesn't already exist in Google is a rather curious argument. Something can't exist because it doesn't already exist. Tell that to scientists. That silly argument out the way, let's look at the real question: Can an infinitive function as a noun subject? Here is what a grammar reference has to say: "El infinitivo en español ejerce funciones de SUSTANTIVO y por lo tanto puede funcionar como sujeto, complemento del verbo o modificador de nombre, adjetivo o adverbio. ¡OJO! En muchos de estos casos, mientras en español se usa un infinitivo, en inglés, se utiliza el gerundio y no el infinitivo. Infinitivo como sujeto (El) Beber vino tinto con moderación es bueno para el corazón. (Drinking red wine ...) Llegar a un acuerdo con el sindicato solucionaría el problema. (Getting to an agreement ...)" http://fis.ucalgary.ca/AVal/505/AGUsosInfinitivo.html Notice the the determiner (El) for Beber is in parentheses, meaning that it is optional. Here are some examples with pronominal verbs from the internet: Vestirse es divertido Vestirse es una necesidad Prepararse es la clave del exito Prepararse es la única vía para poder superar la entrevista Here are some particularly interesting example with prepararse and llevar: ¿Como entrar a la universidad? Prepararse lleva años. No protestes, prepararse lleva su rato. Prepararse lleva tiempo; pero, probablemente, ahorra más tiempo del que ocupa. In all three latter examples, the position of prepararse can be changed. Examples of prepararme in this first position are rarer than prepararse which has a more generic meaning, but here is one: Prepararme para la competencia me da un sentido de misión. The real question here is whether these examples are grammatically correct. I think they are. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 32 of 44 30 December 2010 at 6:51am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Not being afraid of eating humble pie, I believe one can only learn from one's mistakes. I was roundly corrected for writing Me gustan bailar y comer. Sí, me llevan mucho tiempo comer y prepararme. instead of with the the singular verb forms gusta and lleva. These examples only confirmed in the eyes of some people the fact that "bailar y comer" and "comer y prepararme" could not be the true subjects. And we know on what tangent the discussion has since gone off. Well, after researching the subject a bit and talking to people, I want to revisit the issue. It's not black and white. If the subjects are plural, how come the verb is singular? Curiously enough, the same question pops up in French and English. In French we can say things like: C'est de bons amis. Ce sont de bons amis. (They are good friends) In English, somewhat like Spanish, one can hear things like: Eating well and exercising is good for you. Eating well and exercising are good for you. There is many factors involved. There are many factors involved. But to come back to Spanish, my Gramática básica de la lengua española says: "Con frecuencia, el verbo concuerda en singular con el sujeto más cercano, a pesar de que sean varios los sujetos coordinados. Me gusta madruga y hacer ejecricio. Lo que ha hecho y lo que ha dicho concuerda con su manera de ser. Me gusta que madrugues y que hagas ejercicio." In passing, one notes that the author speaks of "sujetos". So, was I wrong in my original examples? Yes, in the sense that the idiomatic form is with the singular with verbs connected with "y". No, in that the subjects are still considered plural. It depends on how one sees the subject, as from this quote: "Cuando el verbo se refiere a un sujeto complejo (varios sujetos coordinados), la concordancia es en plural; en concurrencia de varias personas, la segunda se prefiere a la tercera, y la primera a todas. "El calor y el examen le dejaron hecho polvo" "Ellos y tú os habéis arriesgado mucho" Puede, sin embargo, ir el verbo en singular con un sujeto complejo cuando el hablante lo entienda como totalidad. "La carga y descarga está prohibida a estas horas" http://www.cultureduca.com/leng_gramat_oracion04.php I was wrong, but for a good reason. Edited by s_allard on 30 December 2010 at 6:53am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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