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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| scottieboi88 Newbie CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5223 days ago 6 posts - 13 votes | Message 1 of 12 31 December 2010 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello, everyone. There is something that has been bothering me about French that i would like to have some explanations and answers.Now, first off, i am not against bilingualism at all, (obviously), and since the law dictates, i had to take french up to grade 7. However, my experiences with francophones have (unfortunatley) been very negative. My friends and I were taking a plane from Regina (where i live) to Charlettetown, PEI. We had about a 2 hour layover in Montreal. My friends and I decided to do some exploring. However, much to our dismay it was quite hard to find someone that would speak English. I tried to use my poor grade school french (the only thing i could remember was a very heavily accented Bonjour, merci, and pouvez-vous parler anglais?) and the people we encountered were quite cold and seemed to despise us. I didn't understand it at the time. However, after reading the French language profile on this site and several others, it has been consistently mentioned that the French do not take kindly (much less tolerate) poorly spoken french. I can understand some of their frustration, but the way that most of the francophones (that i have encountered anyway) react, as if in disgust, simply because someone doesn't speak french absolutely perfectly i think is more than a bit arrogant. It is not only from my own peronal experience from which i am speaking There have been a number of people i've met who have been treated this way,in some cases, even when they spoke in french. I would argue that French does present some significant pronunciation problems for an English speaker, and some sounds are quite difficult for us to reproduce. My point is, why are French people so particular about their language? Wouldn't a better thing to do, be to try and HELP the person who is trying to communicate rather than cringe at the fact that someone doesn't say "bonjour correctly? No offense intended here, but i'm just asking why...
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| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes  Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 2 of 12 31 December 2010 at 11:55pm | IP Logged | ||
Because they can't get over the fact that their holy language is no longer - forgive the pun - a lingua franca...of any kind. Frankly it is less important today than Mandarin, Spanish, and Arabic, and is not far ahead of German, Russian, or Portuguese. Fate, accident of history, whatever - English enjoys ascendance in Europe and abroad. Given that there are many tonal languages in which mispronunciation greatly impairs meaning, as for example in Mandarin, Vietnamese, and Yoruba, the marked contrast in how native speakers of these latter languages treat foreigners trying to speak their languages, as opposed to how the French treat foreigners trying to speak French, is more a reflection of cultural attitudes and downright arrogance, than justifiable outrage at an atrocious affront perpetrated against the impeccable French language. I have repeatedly heard of this attitude towards many foreigners, not just Anglophones, but the hatred of things English and American (and by implication Canadian) seems to be most acute. Funny story: Polish-American man (I know him personally) in a French restaurant, asking for more water (the waitress thinks he is American). Doesn't know French and can't remember the French word for water. He goes through the gamut of words he knows: water, aqua, agua, woda, wasser, hydro, etc. The waitress pretends to understand nothing. Finally, he says "Je suis polonais" and the waitress suddenly understands that he needs water. Yawn. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5131 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 3 of 12 01 January 2011 at 12:17am | IP Logged | ||
You sound like you've got a bit of a chip on your shoulder yourself. Stereotypical behavior exists everywhere. Even in the US. That doesn't mean it's universal. I don't speak French, but the times I've been to Montreal (a few), I've never had a problem with either stuttering the best French I can muster, or just speaking English. I think it's a bit unfair to judge a place based on a two hour layover. Oh, and BTW, when you refer to someone as Polish-American, they're American with Polish ancestry. If he were Polish you'd just say he was Polish. R. == 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| CheeseInsider Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5123 days ago 193 posts - 238 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* Studies: French, German | Message 4 of 12 01 January 2011 at 4:25am | IP Logged | ||
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Well at least you tried right? And it's not like you had a choice of getting stuck in Montreal. The French speakers I've met don't mind at all my constant mistakes and poor pronunciation. They help me out as much as they can. That snobby attitude of the people you encountered is most definitely not universal, not even close.
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| Wilco Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6331 days ago 160 posts - 247 votes Speaks: French*, English, Russian | Message 5 of 12 01 January 2011 at 8:05am | IP Logged | ||
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Scottieboi88, if your spoken French is bad, don't blame the French. Get a good teacher
and get over it. Whining on the internet is not going to improve your pronunciation. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Thatzright Diglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5673 days ago 202 posts - 311 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English Studies: French, Swedish, German, Russian | Message 6 of 12 01 January 2011 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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I mostly have a neutral stance on things like these... on one hand I think that responding rudely to someone trying to speak your language with errors is very unhelpful and sort of the wrong thing to do. Someone has, after all, taken the effort of bothering to learn your language, and we should be appreciative of this rather than disgusted over a few wrongly pronunced vowels. On the other hand, however, I do sort of understand the "attitude" (it's, of course, impossible that this would apply to every single Frenchman) of the French in this - they and everybody else have the right to be proud of their native language. If you're proud of something, being highly defensive about it is also probable, so hearing one's native language pronunced wrong can be irritating - "why are you speaking it if you can't even pronunce things right?!"
A language is a mark of a culture, of a people, and when you think about it like this, it can also seem like speaking another language is like "penetrating the ranks" of a nation. Some people, myself sometimes included, can be somewhat suspicious or even intolerant of "other" becoming like them. "He's not one of us" etc. If the French are highly patriotic, which they apparently are, it's no wonder really that they would act like this. It's unfortunate, yes, and not a nice thing to do at all - and they could atleast bother to help - but I think it's also perfectly understandable in this light. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5131 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 7 of 12 01 January 2011 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | ||
I think, at least in the US, that kind of attitude is most noticeable during hard economic times. When times are good, there's not so much of that "you're not one of us" mentality, aside from the xenophobes that have always existed. As an American, I've really only felt not wanted once during any travel I've done. It was during the second Bush presidency and I was in Italy, I was having a pretty nice conversation with a store clerk before buying something. When it came time to pay for the books I'd selected, I used my credit card, which meant I needed to show an ID, and that meant my passport. The conversation turned from cordial to ice-cold in a second. I didn't let it bother me. I understood where the animosity was coming from. I also understood that I probably wasn't going to change her opinion of Americans, even if she had no idea I was one up until I showed my passport. Politics and economics shape a lot of our thinking, unfortunately. If I went back to that book store and ran into her again, she'd probably not have quite as harsh an opinion of Americans in general. Maybe not. Who knows. The point is she was just one person in another otherwise lovely town, full of lovely people. R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Spiderkat Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5813 days ago 175 posts - 248 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Russian | Message 8 of 12 01 January 2011 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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Those "he says/she says" we hear all over the Internet are just descriptions of anecdotes that occured to some people but only with their side of the story. Without knowing the real facts and the context I wouldn't take those as pure truth since people in general tend to embroider the whole situation to make it sound as they were being a victim.
What I'm saying is even if it comes from a friend, I necessarely wouldn't take such anecdotes as face value. It might have occured but it also might not have occured exactly as described. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I won't believe him but I'll be the judge of what seems to be the truth or not according to what seems reasonable to me. I would say there are so many reasons why those anecdotes happen. For instance, not everybody is that willing to help just because you thought or decided that your interlocutor ought to have been just for you at that particular moment. Also if you approch someone and try to speak their language but with the wrong attitude or such attitude sending a message of mockery or such sort - using the wrong words, sounding rude or behaving inappropriately, being alone or laughing with a friend at that particular moment also might send the wrong message, you can't expect your interlocutor to be as nice towards you as you wanted. I like languages and if I were being approched by someone who's trying to get help using my language even badly, then I wouldn't have the kind of defensive reaction that might have be seen from someone who doesn't care about such things and doesn't want to be bothered by some stranger that can't even say a few simple words correctly. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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