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Phonetic confusion - Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5449 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes  Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 9 of 38 02 January 2011 at 10:19am | IP Logged | |||||
I already have - 'z' is another one for which IPA says /ts/, but I hear it many times as voiced, making it /dz/ (which is certainly not just the unaspirated /tsʰ/). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sun_Wukong Newbie China Joined 5080 days ago 34 posts - 46 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 10 of 38 02 January 2011 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Spot on. I honestly don't think I've ever heard it unvoiced, anywhere, just the audio
samples for The Sounds of Chinese by Lin, my new pet peeve, as you can notice. They have a sample audio-file for it on wikipedia, I don't remember where. The word is either zhongguo or just zhong. The audio-file has it voiced. :P I would be absolutely flabbergasted if I ever heard the z in zhongguo unvoiced. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| clumsy Octoglot Senior Member Poland lang-8.com/6715Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5179 days ago 1116 posts - 1367 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Japanese, Korean, French, Mandarin, Italian, Vietnamese Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swedish Studies: Danish, Dari, Kirundi | Message 11 of 38 02 January 2011 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I have book on Croatian, which we can treat as latinized Serbian, so q is just ć !
From the word ići - to go. ch is like c with a dash (ă ). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| lanni Senior Member China Joined 6264 days ago 102 posts - 156 votes Speaks: Mandarin* Studies: English | Message 12 of 38 02 January 2011 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
Could it be so hard? I pronounced pinyin "z" and "zh" to myself. I think for beginners it will do to pronounce pinyin "z" as a tight voiced /ts/(to make it less aspirate, if not less fricative), and pinyin "zh" just as the "j" in "major".
As it happens in any other languages, Chinese consonants would be greatly influenced by the following vowels. I agree that for beginners, don't pay too much attention to pronouncing consonants perfectly. Because there is no perfectly pronounced consonants, and they would change slightly accordingly in the stream. Yes, pay more attention to the bulk of vowels and their tones, they decide the figure of meaningful words, and mainly from which you will recognize meanful Chinese sound units. Edited by lanni on 02 January 2011 at 4:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sun_Wukong Newbie China Joined 5080 days ago 34 posts - 46 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 13 of 38 02 January 2011 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Ianni, I speak for myself, but I would find it easier to pronounce "/dz/" instead, right
away. In my case it feels more natural, and it's not in contradiction with the input I get. Are you a linguistics major? The few I've met here in Chongqing couldn't speak english and I couldn't possibly carry on a conversation full of technicalities in mandarin, a pity. Edited by Sun_Wukong on 02 January 2011 at 5:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| michau Tetraglot Groupie Norway lang-8.com/member/49 Joined 6227 days ago 86 posts - 135 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, NorwegianC1, Mandarin Studies: Spanish, Sign Language Studies: Burmese, Toki Pona, Greenlandic | Message 14 of 38 02 January 2011 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
I had similar impressions when I started learning Mandarin. In Polish, we also have voiced-unvoiced pair dź-ć, which seems to be the same as Serbian ђ-ћ. It may be true that Chinese sometimes pronounce unaspirated sounds voiced, since voicing isn't a distinctive feature in Mandarin. But I guess the main problem is that we aren't used to hearing unvoiced unaspirated consonants because of our native languages, and they sound more like voiced ones to us. Moreover, they are always followed by voiced (semi-)vowels, so it's not so easy for an untrained ear to hear whether vocal cords begin to vibrate before or immediately after the consonant. You may try to pronounce all the three: voiced unaspirated, unvoiced unaspirated and unvoiced aspirated to feel the difference. I think it will come out naturally after some time spent listening to Mandarin. Edited by michau on 02 January 2011 at 5:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sun_Wukong Newbie China Joined 5080 days ago 34 posts - 46 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 15 of 38 02 January 2011 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, from the vantage point of my native language, I very much am used to both. And I probably hear them voiced much more in chinese than the other way around. Monossylables, however, tend to follow the ideal unvoicing. I defer to higher authorities though, I'm still a beginner. And also deal with a lot of (very distressing) dialectal issues where I live. In this discussion, though, I'm trying to draw back on my exposure to proper Standard Mandarin and northern speakers from more than one area... Hopefully my memory is not serving me as bad as it usually does. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sun_Wukong Newbie China Joined 5080 days ago 34 posts - 46 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 16 of 38 02 January 2011 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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One further complicating issue is hypercorrection. A native speaker trained "by the book"
on the ideal descriptions of putonghua can hypercorrect his speech in somewhat unnatural manners. I've seen it happening more than once with some of my teachers and even taked about it with one of them since it was very noticeable. You can tell because it sounds slightly off, at least to my trained ears, and they can never keep it 100% of the time, much less in more alongated, natural, speech production. Both have a degree in teaching chinese as a second language. Interestingly enough, it's much more noticeable with the northerner (from a city quite close to Beijing, not a tianjinhua speaker or anything of the sort) than with the local chongqinger. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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