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Phonetic confusion - Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| michau Tetraglot Groupie Norway lang-8.com/member/49 Joined 6227 days ago 86 posts - 135 votes  Speaks: Polish*, English, NorwegianC1, Mandarin Studies: Spanish, Sign Language Studies: Burmese, Toki Pona, Greenlandic | Message 25 of 38 03 January 2011 at 12:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I see, my comments aren't too relevant to you, then. :) Edited by michau on 03 January 2011 at 12:23am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5449 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 26 of 38 03 January 2011 at 12:42am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Hopefully not :D. I hope I'm not just imagining what I hear :D.
The third Assimil lesson is such a nice example: every 'b' is so clearly unvoiced that I would've been confused if hadn't know about this mixing of voiced and unvoiced. But then in in the exercises, the third speaker (female) pronounces voiced 'b'. (I should probably stop obsessing about this...) Edited by Aineko on 03 January 2011 at 12:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 38 03 January 2011 at 1:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I agree with you - not with the Serbian sound in mind, of course, but that the tongue is a bit further back. It's one of those retroflex sounds. The Wikipedia entry on pinyin describes it like this: zh [tʂ], [dʐ] "junk" Rather like ch (a sound between choke, joke, true, and drew, tongue tip curled more upwards). Voiced in a toneless syllable. Unvoiced issues aside, I'd describe it as the consonant cluster in the middle of "sergeant" ([sɑrdʒənt]) or "margarine" ([mɑrdʒərɪn]/[mɑrdʒrɪn]). I also don't hear fully unvoiced consonants all the time. It depends on the position in the word, its position in the sentence, and the idiolect of the speaker. My personal way of pronouncing the unaspired unvoiced consonants z, j and zh is to "release" the tip of tongue a fraction of second after contact. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Sun_Wukong Newbie China Joined 5080 days ago 34 posts - 46 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 28 of 38 03 January 2011 at 5:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
This is very interesting, egill! Can you elaborate further? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| lanni Senior Member China Joined 6264 days ago 102 posts - 156 votes Speaks: Mandarin* Studies: English | Message 29 of 38 03 January 2011 at 5:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Almost every Chinese character is a unit of one consonant and one vowel. You may say that there are exceptions like "-ian" and "-an", but I hardly technically pronounce the "-n" in real speech, I just vaguely make "-an" as less nasal French "un". So, I would unprofessionally say that there are no unvoiced consonants in Chinese speech, because all consonants have already been assimilated by the following vowels into voiced ones. Ah, yes, there are sound units like "zi","ci","zhi","chi","si","shi" and "ri", in that case you have to make an effort to vibrate your vocal cord, although your mouth is prepared for a consonant.
As long as it suits you. I think the point is to be able to differentiate pinyin "z" and pinyin "zh" in real speech. You are living in Chongqing, you may have encountered this amusing episode that sometimes people out there need to cross their forefingers to show they are saying the number of ten "shi2" not four "si4". The locals have difficulty differentiating the consonants and tones of these two numbers. Chongqing is a lovely place, but for learning putonghua Chinese... When I had lived out there long enough, I even got hesitated pronouncing consonants "n" and "l" distinctively, sometimes even with "f" and "h". These two pairs are also difficult for the locals. Then I got panicked that I could not be as brisk-tongued as before. Luckily as soon as I was out of there and back to northern environment, everything recovered.
To either move the tip of tongue a bit further back or not does not matter much. It won't change the figure of pinyin "zh","ch","r"and "sh", only the colour. Actually I met many natives who exagerate these consonants, meaning, they put their tongue tips far back even comically. I would recognize the exageration as personal style. Phonologically, Mandarin Chinese is not very complicated. Only the consonants of "j" and "q" are a bit tricky. First, say the English word "key", keep the position, do not change the general height of your tongue, just switch to the alveolar position with the near front part of your tongue, meanwhile the tip of your tongue is balanced against the roots of your lower front teeth. Now you are well prepared to pronounce pinyin "q". "j" is a tight "q", meaning, the tunnel should be made narrower by adding a little more of the nearer front part of your tongue toward the alveolar, meanwhile the tip of your tongue will push harder against the teeth. The general position is the same, but sounds less aspirate. Do not isolate these consonants whiling practising. We are human, how could we feel comfortable uttering these pinyin initials while they actually are supposed to be uttered together with vowels? Edited by lanni on 03 January 2011 at 7:21am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Sun_Wukong Newbie China Joined 5080 days ago 34 posts - 46 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 30 of 38 03 January 2011 at 7:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
So you understand my predicament. Sorry to hijack the thread, but I feel like venting a little. I can get three types of input here: standardized mandarin from students. It seems that the better their background is, the less mesolecticism (so to speak) I get. Sadly, I get close to zero of this input. Secondly, chongqinghua. I get it all the time and it's horrible because I naturally absorb it just like any other type of mandarin. It messes my tones and phonology. It's working against my learning rather than helping. Thirdly, the local "mesolects" (is there a more proper term?) resulting from diglossia, which range from chongqinghua with a slight touch of mandarin phonetics or vocabulary to the opposite. These are the worse. If I were even in Canton it would probably be better, because it's easy to keep things separated, I wouldn't be getting bad input. I was sent here by a scholarship program but had applied to Beijing. I've been learning a whole lot less than I was expecting. Then again, I don't have friends willing to talk to me in chinese, and mine is so bad as to not really being helpful in starting a meaningful conversation. Next semester I'll get a private tutor for sure just for speaking practice and working on tones. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5449 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 31 of 38 03 January 2011 at 9:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I've heard about this, but only about the consonants, not about the tones. Do they in general have trouble differentiating 2nd and 4th tone? How many tones does their native dialect have? (2nd is the hardest tone for me to produce correctly).
Nice to hear that, thank you lanni, now I can finally move on with Mandarin :). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| lanni Senior Member China Joined 6264 days ago 102 posts - 156 votes Speaks: Mandarin* Studies: English | Message 32 of 38 03 January 2011 at 11:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Between consonants and tones, I would say the latter is practically more important for comprehension. To my Mandarin ears, the locals utter 2nd and 4th tones both with a kind of low long toneless tone. Sorry, I don't know how many tones they have.
If I were a foreign learner and the conditions permitted, I would choose first year in Beijing (nowhere else, not even other places near Beijing, because some Hebei provincial dialects are no better than Chongqing; nor Tianjin because it is a boring place and the local accent is ugly; nor Liaoning province, because the local speech is also unrecommendable.). The only second option for first year is Heilongjiang, because the accent is slightly different from Mandarin and pleasant to hear, you would not get too much confused as long as you keep alert a little bit, I know it is cold out there in winter. With this solid first-year learning and exposure, I would go to places like Chongqing to enjoy more local cultures. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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