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Cases in Russian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| moorea21 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5121 days ago 26 posts - 26 votes Studies: Russian | Message 1 of 13 11 December 2010 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi,
I've posted this in another section of this forum, too. Not at all sure which it belongs in, really, sorry... Anyway, I'm having great difficulty with the idea of cases. I don't really understand what a case is in English, let alone Russian. One stumbling block for me is why are the cases called what they are called? Why is the genitive case called genitive case? Would the word 'genitive' tell me anything helpful if I understood why it is used? to me, genitive suggests "concerned with the origin of..." Is this correct in any way? Accusative... who or what is being accused? Dative... absolutely nothing to do with dates, in any sense of the word. I'm not being facetious, I just think I'd understand something about what cases are if I knew why they had those apparently random names. Would it be better for me to stop trying to understand this at this point? would I do better if I found a list somewhere of thousands of Russian sentences, with an indication of what case is used in each sentence? that way maybe I'd understand gradually as I start to see and predict patterns in what I'm reading. I really don't want to have to learn by rote; I need to get through this by thinking and applying rules, not remembering every possible permutation of subject and object. Does anyone have an idea about how I should proceed? All paths seem to lead to frustration at the moment... Richard B 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5131 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes  Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 2 of 13 11 December 2010 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm studying Polish and noun cases were probably the most difficult thing for me to understand. We actually use four cases pretty extensively in English, although I can't say I remember ever learning them in high school.
I found that if I just forgot about what they were and concentrated on real world use, at least in the beginning stages of learning, I was better off. It wasn't until later, when I started concentrating on grammar, that I stated to understand them a bit better. there's a wikipedia page that talks about cases - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case. Maybe you'll find it helpful to learn how they're used in English first. It certainly helped me. R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| FrostBlast Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5100 days ago 168 posts - 254 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Icelandic | Message 3 of 13 11 December 2010 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Dative case
"Dative" comes from Latin cāsus datīvus, meaning "case for giving", a translation of Greek ptôsis dotikḗ "inflection for giving",[1] from its use with the verb didónai "to give".[2] Dionysius Thrax in his Art of Grammar also refers to it as epistaltikḗ "for sending (a letter)",[3] from the verb epistéllō "send to", a word from the same root as epistle. (wikipedia) Accusative case The English name "accusative (case)" is an Anglicisation of the Latin accūsātīvus (cāsus),[2] which was translated from Ancient Greek (ptôsis) aitiatikḗ.[3] The Greek term can mean either "(inflection) for something caused" or "for an accusation".[4] The intended meaning was likely the first, which would be translated as Latin causātīvus[5] or effectīvus,[6] but the Latin term was a translation of the second. Compare Russian вини́тельный vinítel’nyj, from винить vinít’ "to blame". (wikipedia) In Russian, accusative is used not only to display the direct object of an action, but also to indicate the destination or goal of motion. It is also used with some prepositions. The prepositions в and на can both take accusative in situations where they are indicating the goal of a motion. In the masculine, Russian also distinguishes between animate and inanimate nouns with regard to the accusative; only the animates carry a marker in this case. In fact Russian almost lost the real PIE accusative case, since only feminine nouns ending in 'a' have a distinct form. Other words use the genitive case in place of the accusative. (also wikipedia) Genitive case This case can denote possession, but it can also denote other grammatical relationships, such as the destination in a physical movement. In Icelandic, the genitive case is applied on the name of a place you're going to, changing the ending of the name. For example, let's say you're going to a town named Hafnarförður - the correct way to say this in Icelandic would be "Ég er að fara til Hafnarfjarðar." Here, Hafnarförður takes on its genitive form : Hafnarfjarðar. For any other case, you might want to look here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammatical_cases When I started learning what little Icelandic I know (I know enough to express basic ideas, like bus tickets, food, where I'm going, where I'm from, etc), I had a pretty rough time with the cases. The thing is, prepositions that are usually used with a certain case in a language will be used with anothr different case in another language. It's like saying that, suddently, you have to say "I'm going for Canada" instead of "I'm going to Canada." It requires some getting used to but eventually, you'll grab on the logic behind it and you'll develop an instinct for it. It's really just a matter of time and effort. Also I'm gonna start a russian course at university in january. When we start hitting the grammatical cases, if you'd like me to let you know and send some notes your way, you need only ask. Edited by FrostBlast on 12 December 2010 at 12:05am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6143 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 4 of 13 12 December 2010 at 12:06am | IP Logged | |||||
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Part of your problem might be that cases don't really exist in modern English anymore. We still have the nominative and the genitive (when you add 's to a noun to show possession), and the accusative/dative can be observed in pronouns (I see HIM instead of I see HE).
The names of the cases in English (as far as I can tell) come from words used in Latin or Ancient Greek to describe the function of those cases. So "nominative" comes from a Latin word meaning "case for naming" and "dative" comes from an Latin word meaning "case for giving." I wouldn't worry too much about the names of the cases (much less their etymologies) as long as you understand their functions. Here's a brief listing of the function of Russian's six cases. A native or fluent speaker might be able to elaborate and clarify. NOMINATIVE - This case is used to mark the subject of the sentence. Ex: The man drinks. = Мужчина пьёт. OR They are women. = Они -- женщины. ACCUSATIVE - This case is used to mark the direct object of the sentence. It can also show direction when going somewhere. Ex. My brother is reading a book. = Мой брат читает книгу. OR We want to go to Russia. = Мы хотем поехать в Россию. DATIVE - This case is used to mark the indirect object of the sentence. Ex. Your aunt gave a present to my sister. = Ваша тётя дала подарок моей сестре. OR Please give this pen to your teacher. = Дай пожалуйста это перо твоему учителю. GENITIVE - This case is used to mark possession or affiliation with something. Ex. The boy's dog is black. = Собака мальчика чёрный. OR The president of Russia is Dmitry Medvedev. = Президент России -- Дмитрий Медведев. INSTRUMENTAL - This case is used to mark the instrument with which an action is performed, or a person with whom something is done. Ex: I wrote the letter with a pencil. = Я написал письмо карандашом. OR I watched a movie with friends. = Я посмотрел фильм с друзьями. PREPOSITIONAL - This case is used after certain prepositions to denote the location of something, or speaking about something. Ex: Paris is a big city in France. = Париж -- большой город в Франции. OR She is speaking about your trip to Moscow. = Она говорит о твоей поездке в Москву. I should also note that these aren't the complete usages for each case. For example, some prepositions require specific cases, and these must be memorized individually. For instance, без (without) requires the genitive case and через (through/across) requires the accusative. Therefore... без машины = without a car (машина in the genitive) через страну = across the country (страна in the accusative) I hope this helps. Удачи! Edited by ellasevia on 12 December 2010 at 12:46am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| moorea21 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5121 days ago 26 posts - 26 votes Studies: Russian | Message 5 of 13 12 December 2010 at 12:30am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks both:
hrhenry: I'll start where you suggest, I need to get my head around cases per se, so my own language would be a good place to start! Good luck with Polish; I think it's one of Europe's most interesting countries, I'd love to visit, but a wobbly Russian speaker wouldn't get very far! Hi FrostBlast, There's a lot of new terminology for me here, hope you can help me out a bit, thanks: The latin "(inflection) for something caused"... that sounds less obtuse than "for an accusation". I wonder why this was not renamed accordingly at some point in history? "The accusative is used not only to display the direct object of an action..." does this mean that the object that receives an action (ie 'him' in the sentence 'the ball hits him') 'takes the accusative case' as the saying goes? Ie it's spelling changes? "The prepositions в and на can both take accusative..." this is interesting to me semantically. These two prepositions mean 'in', don't they? I hear people say things like 'takes the accusative case' or ' this preposition governs the genitive case', but they leave me stumped. The only impression it leaves me with is of a bossy little preposition forcing the poor noun to the right of it to change to suit it's whim! Isn't it just the noun that 'takes the case?' Sorry if this is obscure stuff... ..."only the animates carry a marker in this case" Not sure what this means; does it mean that inanimate nouns in the accusative are are spelt the same as in their nominative forms? "In fact Russian almost lost the real PIE accusative case, since only feminine nouns ending in 'a' have a distinct form..." What is PIE? And what is 'distinct form' in this context? I hope you don't mind indulging me; My college term ended yesterday and I need to find things to get pedantic about! Rich B 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| OlafP Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5436 days ago 261 posts - 667 votes Speaks: German*, French, English | Message 6 of 13 12 December 2010 at 12:44am | IP Logged | |||||
No preposition "с" here. The instrumental of карандаш already means "using a pencil". The fact that you expressed it as "with a pencil" in English can lead you to believe that you need the preposition like in your other example with the friends. But you don't watch a film "using friends", so this is a different thing. The instrumental has more functions than that, but this is good enough to get a first idea. Too much information at once would only be overwhelming. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6143 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 7 of 13 12 December 2010 at 12:46am | IP Logged | |||||
Спасибо! I was wondering about that. It's fixed now. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5274 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 8 of 13 12 December 2010 at 4:04am | IP Logged | |||||
Parenthetically, this is a common error in Serbian and the example carries over well into Russian. For instance, "jedem sa viljuskom" means "I eat alongside [my friend] the fork." To say "I eat with a fork" you say "jedem viljuskom" because the instrumental case performs what the "with" does in English. On the other hand, if you want to say "I am eating with Maria" you would say "jedem sa Marijom" rather than "jedem Marijom" because you are not actually instrumentalizing Maria in the way you would a fork, yet you still need to say that you are doing something in her presence and along witth her participation. Edited by Merv on 12 December 2010 at 4:07am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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