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Catalan: Writing system: "l·l" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5321 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes  Speaks: German*, English | Message 1 of 17 16 November 2010 at 10:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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When I visited Barcelona I noticed that the name of the Paral·lel subway station was written with a middle dot between the two l's. At first I assumed that this might have been a place name, but later I saw that double l's in other words were also separated by middle dots.
1. Does anybody know who introduced this spelling convention and why? 2. Are there any other unusual spelling conventions in Catalan not found in other Romance languages? Edited by Doitsujin on 16 November 2010 at 10:56pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 2 of 17 16 November 2010 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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1 a) Possibly Pompeu Fabra.
1 b) Because ll without a dot represent another sound. 2. Not really. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| canada38 Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5496 days ago 304 posts - 417 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish, French Studies: Portuguese, Japanese | Message 3 of 17 16 November 2010 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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Pròxima estació... Paral·lel. Edited by canada38 on 16 November 2010 at 11:59pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7104 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 4 of 17 17 November 2010 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | ||
This is quite likely. However, in the following book by Fabra published in 1898, he argues that the 'll' is the natural symbol for the double 'l' and to consider adopting another symbol for the palatal 'l' (Section 6 starting on P.25 - with the relevant details on P.26) : Contribució a la gramatica de la llengua catalana However, the following published in 1904 (P.33), still only notes that the 'll' is used to represent both sounds: Tractat de ortografia catalana At some point, then, there was change in opinion and 'l·l' was used to represent the geminated 'l'. Edited by Andy E on 17 November 2010 at 3:27pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 5 of 17 17 November 2010 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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Summary:
Castillian Spanish uses LL for a palatised L (traditionally /lj/, most commonly now simply /j/) and somebody borrowed that into Catalan. But Catalan also has a "geminated" L, that is one with a longer, sustained sound, which is basically like two Ls run together. Italian would just write LL for this, but Catalan couldn't because they were using it for something else. The · in L·L is simply a separator, telling you that it's not a single "letter" (digraph, strictly) LL, but two letter Ls. There would be better ways of doing it*, but no language is ever written cleanly and logically -- every change is a hack of a "best fit" with what's already there. (* The most logical thing in my opinion would be for LL to be written instead LY, which would be consistent with NY, a palatised N equivalent to Spanish Ñ. This would leave L·L free to lose the ·. But it's a bit late for that now.) 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 6 of 17 17 November 2010 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the links, Andy!
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| ^veganboy^ Groupie United Kingdom Joined 5920 days ago 51 posts - 51 votes | Message 7 of 17 22 November 2010 at 3:13am | IP Logged | ||
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l.l and ï - paral.lel, il.lusió, il.limitat,raïm, maïnada... it´s such a shame people do not use them anymore...
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| aodhanc Diglot Groupie Iceland Joined 6261 days ago 92 posts - 130 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish | Message 8 of 17 25 November 2010 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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Catalan is a language for has-beens.
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