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Greek Modern with a goal of Koine? | ||
Tags: Ancient Greek | Greek | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6143 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 9 of 13 03 December 2010 at 2:18am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I've bolded the parts that I would have been able to understand. It looks like a lot, but that was a short quote with most of the words repeated a couple times. Those words that I understood are also some of the very basic words that remained the same or very similar over time. Tell me, without knowing any Modern Greek would you know what this meant? "Το έξυπνο κορίτσι είδε ένα πουλί στο συννεφιασμένο ουρανό τη Δευτέρα. Την επόμενη ημέρα είπε αυτό στο αδελφάκι της γιατί ήξερε ότι του άρεσαν πολύ τα πουλιά. Τότε της είπε το αγόρι ότι πεινούσε, και αποφάσισαν να πάνε στο κατάστημα για να δούνε αν είχε τίποτα να φάνε. Βρήκαν μερικά φρούτα (μήλα, αχλάδια, και βύσσινα) και ψαράκια. Αγόρασαν τα πάντα και γύρισαν στο σπίτι. Μετά ρώτησαν τη μήτερα τους να τηγανίσει τα ψαράκια. Το αγόρακι και η αδελφή του κάθισαν στην τραπεζαρία κι έφαγαν το νόστιμο φαγητό ενώ κοίταζαν τα λουλούδια στην αυλή και τη θάλασσα." It's a longer text than what you provided, but I think it should show some of the differences between Modern and Ancient Greek. It's just a random story which I made up on the spot, so nothing special (ie, Biblical) or anything. It uses a lot of everyday vocabulary and language, so I'll be interested to see how much of that you can understand based on your background in Ancient Greek. I know several of those words are similar or the same as ones in Ancient Greek, but I also know of several which are completely different. EDIT: Ahhh, spelling. Edited by ellasevia on 04 December 2010 at 6:35am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6123 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 10 of 13 03 December 2010 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yes, many of the words are the same or vey similar such as: ουρανό = οὐρανός ημέρα = ἡμέρᾳ αγοράζω (Αγόρασαν) = ἀγοράζω μήτερα = μήτηρ αδελφή = ἀδελφή θάλασσα = θάλασσα κορίτσι = κοράσιον and some are different such as: αγόρι= παιδάριον σπίτι = οἶκος φρούτα = καρπός Coming from my knowledge of Koine, this passage appears to me to be Greek, just a different dialect. When I study Modern Greek I am very comfortable with it and it is very easy--just a matter of learning some new vocabulary and some nuances of idiom--not at all like learning a different language. Edited by JW on 03 December 2010 at 3:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6143 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 11 of 13 04 December 2010 at 6:52am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Interesting. I showed this to my grandmother, a native speaker of Modern Greek, and she agreed with both of us actually. She doesn't think that Ancient Greek is too distant from the modern language, but this might have something to do with exposure to it when she was in school (they studied it as a foreign language) and also at the time when she was growing up, Katharevousa was still the official language of Greece so she perhaps has a considerable advantage there in understanding Ancient Greek than do the younger generations growing up in Greece today.
She also claims that some of your translations of the Modern Greek into Ancient Greek are inaccurate, but as I don't know the extent of her knowledge of Ancient Greek, I don't know if it's a credible statement. In particular, she said that your θάλασσα should actually be θάλατα and that παιδάριον is simply wrong... Some more notes about your comparisons: - Ουρανό is just the accusative of ουρανός so the Modern and Ancient words are essentially the same here. - Παιδάριον appears to be related to the Modern Greek παιδί, which simply means 'child.' - Οίκος is also a word for a house or home in Modern Greek too, but in a rather formal register. Several of these words derived from Ancient Greek still exist in the modern language but have been largely replaced by other words and the original ones now have a formal status. More examples are άρτος/ψωμί (bread), άνθος/λουλούδι (flower), όρος/βουνό (mountain), οίνος/κρασύ (wine), ζύθος/μπύρα (beer), etc. - Καρπός is also apparently a Modern Greek word meaning 'fruit,' but I've never come across it myself. I have, however, found καρποφόρο δέντρο, a fruit-bearing tree. Finally, I'm not sure what the significance is of this, but my grandmother insisted that I share this Ancient Greek quote with you (I apologize if I don't get the accents correct): Εξήλθε ο σπείρων του σπείραι τον σπόρον αυτού. Edited by ellasevia on 04 December 2010 at 6:54am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5600 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 12 of 13 04 December 2010 at 10:29am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Παιδάριον is a good word of ancient Greek, used by Plato and Aristophanes for "little boy"
Θάλαττα (sic) is part of the dialect of Athens, all other Greeks said θάλασσα. Εξήλθε ο σπείρων του σπείραι τον σπόρον αυτού. ἐξῆλθε: he came out ὁ σπείρων: the sower αἱ σπεῖραι: the ropes; the coils ὁ σπόρος: the seed τοῦ precedes a genitive masculine, but σπείραι is nominative, feminine. So the sentence seems a bit crooked. It must be something like "The sowman brought his seed forth ..." 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6123 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 13 of 13 04 December 2010 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
This is actually a quote from Luke 8:5 which reads: ἐξῆλθεν ὁ σπείρων τοῦ σπεῖραι τὸν σπόρον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ σπείρειν αὐτὸν ὃ μὲν ἔπεσεν παρὰ τὴν ὁδὸν καὶ κατεπατήθη, καὶ τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ κατέφαγεν αὐτό. In English: The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. In Modern Greek: Βγήκε ο σπορέας να σπείρει το σπόρο του και καθώς έσπερνε, ένα μέρος από το σπόρο έπεσε δίπλα στο δρόμο και καταπατήθηκε, και τα πουλιά τ' ουρανού το κατέφαγαν.
Actually, σπείραι is the aorist active infinitive of σπείρω so the construction appears to be a genitive articular infinitive.
It is also used in the Septuagint here (Joel 3:3): καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν λαόν μου ἔβαλον κλήρους καὶ ἔδωκαν τὰ παιδάρια πόρναις καὶ τὰ κοράσια ἐπώλουν ἀντὶ οἴνου καὶ ἔπινον English: They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink.
I think you are correct, it seems to me that the older generation had more exposure to the ancient language and can often quote ancient passages and proverbs, as your Grandmother did, while the younger generation cannot (although this is from very limited anecdotal evidence on my part). Edited by JW on 04 December 2010 at 3:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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