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ELP is offensive to English people | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5522 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes  Speaks: Swedish* | Message 17 of 46 01 December 2010 at 9:29am | IP Logged | |||||
I meant that I can't be sure exactly what he referred to when he wrote "backward areas", since I didn't write it. I don't have a problem with the term, I think it's quite clear. Generally speaking, I am not upset by such things, especially not when I don't even belong to the group being talked about. Perhaps we should leave it to our working class members from backward areas to be outraged? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JimC Senior Member United Kingdom tinyurl.com/aberdeen Joined 5548 days ago 199 posts - 317 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 18 of 46 01 December 2010 at 10:31am | IP Logged | |||||
That says a lot about you, that you think that only those who are the target can object to insulting language being used. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 19 of 46 01 December 2010 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
In English, "backward" is a pejorative term, there is no arguing with that. It is a subjective value judgement that shows the speaker considers the person or people he is talking about to be inferior to himself. If you do not agree, then that is a fault in your understanding of English. You could similarly argue that "nigger" is clear and inoffensive on the grounds of its derivation for the Latin word for black, but it is widely regarded as a term of abuse and no-one would argue with that. 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5131 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 20 of 46 01 December 2010 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
You can't possibly be comparing those two words... They're absolutely NOT comparable. One is amusingly offensive (if at all, from my US-centric point of view). The other is patently offensive and shows clear hate - again, from my US-centric point if view. R. == 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5522 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 21 of 46 01 December 2010 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
For one thing, nigger comes from niggardly, at least partly. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5131 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 22 of 46 01 December 2010 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
Don't care where it comes from. My beef was that it's absurd to compare "backwards" with it. The word has all sorts of historical hatred associated with it. They don't have the same weight attached to them AT ALL. R. == Edited by hrhenry on 01 December 2010 at 5:04pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5522 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 23 of 46 01 December 2010 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
Of course it's pejorative, wasn't that the whole point in the original context, he advised against speaking that kind of English. Since he didn't mention any particular region, who will be offended? Surely, backward is not necessarily subjective. Or if it is, can you propose a term that means the same thing, but is objective and inoffensive? (In other words, the PC translation). Or perhaps it's not even allowed to mention that some places are culturally less developed at all? And yes, I think it is faintly ridiculous to be offended on behalf of others, at least when it something insignificant like saying that there is a connection between rural and backward. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6950 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 24 of 46 02 December 2010 at 3:11am | IP Logged | |||||
It's not insignificant. Obviously a difference in our understanding of the meaning of 'backward' is at fault here. It doesn't mean less interested in books and theatre and higher education. It's a very charged word with wide-ranging connotations of unintelligence, perversion, barbarism, etc. If I'm told that people from a certain country are 'backward', I imagine a savage, tribal people with a weird religion that mandates human sacrifices or something like that, who aren't capable of reason and need to be saved from their inferior ways. To extend that kind of characterization to however many millions of British people do not speak in a BBC accent is ignorant and insulting. It also assumes an egocentric frame of reference ('Backwards' compared to what? Compared to the speaker's own 'forward' culture, of course) which is why anyone who uses this word sounds arrogant and ignorant. It sounds like something that a snobby historian in the 19th century would say. Ironically, the type of person to assume such a view of the world betrays his own lack of education and refinement by using such a label. So what term should we use instead, you ask? Well, why not say what you mean? If you mean that their income is low, say that. If you want to refer to the culture, values, and socioeconomic status, say 'working class'. If you want to say they are inferior and degenerate heathens, say that. If you want to say that they are poor, rural, superstitious, illogical, unintelligent, barbarous, inferior degenerate heathens, then 'backward' might be the right word after all. This isn't being PC or beating around the bush; it's using English accurately to convey your meaning the way it was intended. Personally, I think that FX's intended meaning was something along the lines of 'less educated and socioeconomically disadvantaged' (which is understandably a stigma which should be avoided, from his perspective of a businessman and lover of high culture), and that he didn't mean to come off as so condescending. I don't think he was judging their culture or values system in a negative light, because I've seen his blogs about traveling to rural Romania (for example) and he showed great reverence for their way of life, even fiercely defending their traditional methods of butchering their livestock. So I suggest that he reword his English profile to remove such unintentionally condescending language. After all, the purpose of language is the clear communication of ideas, and if some native speakers are misunderstanding him then there must be a problem with the language that was used (and certainly not with the native speakers - all of them in this thread except one - who have deemed it insulting and unacceptable). Edited by Lucky Charms on 02 December 2010 at 3:23am 9 persons have voted this message useful |
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