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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| chucknorrisman Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5449 days ago 321 posts - 435 votes  Speaks: Korean*, English, Spanish Studies: Russian, Mandarin, Lithuanian, French | Message 1 of 11 05 December 2010 at 5:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Many factors, such as music (not J-pop but the older stuff and traditional stuff), video games, some anime, and my love of learning Chinese characters gave me a feeling that I should probably study Japanese sooner or later. So I just got some quick questions:
How hard is its grammar compared to Korean? I've been teaching myself traditional Chinese characters. Are the modern Japanese kanjis simplified greatly from the traditional characters? What are some resources for learning it that do not neglect the pitch accent? I've heard that a lot of resources neglect it. Edited by chucknorrisman on 05 December 2010 at 5:03am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Leurre Bilingual Pentaglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5426 days ago 219 posts - 372 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Korean, Haitian Creole, SpanishC2 Studies: Japanese | Message 2 of 11 05 December 2010 at 9:31am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hiya
From what I hear (though there may be several long threads on this buried somewhere in the forum) Japanese grammar is slightly less complex than Korean. THis is a general statement that I hold from my current language teacher, a Korean lady who spent lots of time in Japan, and from my genius friend, how has learnt Japanese, Korean and Chinese to high (and I mean high) levels of proficiency, so take that with whatever grain of salt you want. But more than the grammar, it's apparently just downright more intuitive if you know Korean. So lots of expressions and collocations (시험에 떨어졌다 등) are similar. I've been learning Hanja for a bit too and will soon start studying japanese, and from my non-expert standpoint, it seems like most of them match. Every now and then, (and...thankfully!) you'll find a 한자 that would take some time to write in traditional (읽을 독 is a good example) that are written out more simply in Japanese. As for your final question, I really cant answer, but I'm sure someone else will! 화이링이당~ 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6950 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 3 of 11 05 December 2010 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I've never studied Korean, but everything I've read about it seems like Japanese is
Korean Lite. I base this on Japanese's simpler phonology, fewer conjugation patterns, and less use of honorifics. I think most of the trickiest aspects of Japanese - the word order, particles, honorifics, native Japanese + Sino-Japanese lexical strata - will already be familiar to you from Korean. That leaves only the kanji. Memorizing them will be at times very dull and at times fascinating (the fascinating part especially since learning the characters will give you more insight into the etymology of Korean, as I'm sure you've noticed already!) I think the kanji are in most cases the same as the traditional forms. A few exceptions I can think of are 学 and 国, which use the same simplified characters used in Mainland China (the traditional forms are 學 and 國, respectively). I don't know about resources that teach the pitch accent, but what has helped me a lot is being able to hear the pitch of a word so that I could make a note of it myself. This is all you need to know to be able to figure it out: 1) There are two pitch levels; let's call them - (high) and _ (low). 2) The first two kana are always different in standard Japanese, so every word begins with either -_ or _-. 3) Once the pitch of a word falls from [-]→[_], it can never go back up again. So we can have -_ _ _, _-_ _, _--_, but not *-_ _- or *_-_-. (Note that the 'climb' from [_-] is possible only at the beginning of a word because it has not fallen before that.) The rest is just ear training. Given these rules, can you figure out the pitch contour of A-RI-GA-TO-O ? (Edit: The 1st and 3rd recording are in Standard Japanese. The one in the middle has a different intonation pattern that sounds like it's from Kansai.) Edited by Lucky Charms on 09 December 2010 at 10:37am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| jazzboy.bebop Senior Member Norway norwegianthroughnove Joined 5419 days ago 439 posts - 800 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Norwegian | Message 4 of 11 05 December 2010 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Getting lots of info about pitch accent is tricky but there are a couple of useful resources around the web for it, including the obligatory wiki entry for a wee overview: Japanese Pitch Accent Wiki[/URL shiawase.co.uk pitch accent resource The second link is quite useful, which gives some info about pitch accent but also links to where to buy a textbook which teaches pitch accents as a matter of course along with the usual stuff, but there is also a link to buy a pitch accent dictionary used by broadcasters with the NHK to learn the relevant pitch accents to conform with the standard Tokyo dialect used for news broadcasts. There is another textbook from the late '80s aimed at English speakers learning Japanese which teaches pitch accent called "Japanese: The Spoken Language", but there is a CD-ROM version of it and I've been able to find free downloadable versions of it quite easily. Haven't downloaded it myself and don't know of the overall quality of the teaching but it is probably the most detailed resource you can find freely on the net regarding learning the standard pitch accent. Just type "Japanese: The Spoken Language Download" into google and the first thing that comes up has download links for it. Not sure if it is still on sale though. Edited by jazzboy.bebop on 06 December 2010 at 2:24am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5650 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 5 of 11 05 December 2010 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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You being a Korean native, Japanese grammar should be simple for you. Some things are different, but for the most part, Japanese grammar is just simplified Korean grammar.
Japanese has simplified characters. A lot of the Chinese characters you know will be the same in Japanese, but there will be differences. Japanese For Everyone is a textbook that I own that shows the pitch accent for every vocab word, but in the example sentences, it is ignored, only showed when they list the vocabulary. Book is in English, if that matters to you, as a Korean ---> Japanese textbook would probably be more efficient for you. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6950 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 6 of 11 06 December 2010 at 1:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Agreed! An English -> Japanese textbook might be repeating a lot of things you already know.I bet there are a ton of great resources on learning Japanese in Korean.
When you're editing your post, there's a button with a graphic of the earth with a chain 'link' (har har). It's right next to the [U] button. Edited by Lucky Charms on 06 December 2010 at 1:16am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| jazzboy.bebop Senior Member Norway norwegianthroughnove Joined 5419 days ago 439 posts - 800 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Norwegian | Message 7 of 11 06 December 2010 at 1:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Cheers for that, always wondered what that button was for! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5767 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 8 of 11 06 December 2010 at 5:03am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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wadoku.de/
You can find the information on pitch accent when you go from your search result to the single entry. I'm not sure how many of the entries show pitch accent yet as they're still in the process of adding those but I've found it helpful for quite a number of words I've only encountered in the written form. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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