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How close is Gaelic to English? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Patchy Newbie Joined 5129 days ago 25 posts - 46 votes Speaks: English* | Message 17 of 41 11 November 2010 at 10:45am | IP Logged | |||||
Hi Irishpolyglot. I'm pleased to make your acquaintance, as I admire all your stuff on Youtube. Anyway, to the matter in hand: I want to try and put this in a logical rather than emotive context so as you can see my point, so: 1. As regards Zulu, I (and possibly even you) am one of those many people "on the other side of the planet with zero familiarity with it", but that doesn't make the word I use to speak of and understand it any less valid. Indeed it is; to my mind; more valid than whatever alternative word that those more familiar with it may use, as I am with the majority in terms of numbers of people and numbers of years of precedence. 2. Even so; in the case of Irish Gaelic (and all Gaelic), those most familiar with it (the native speakers born before the 1940s) always used the word 'Gaelic' to denote it in their youth, before many of them were told to call it 'Irish' by their 'wiser' non- Gaelic-speaking countrymen better versed in the Republican government party line. Even today the very best native Gaelic-speakers in Donegal and Mayo (that is; those over 60 years old) still call it 'Gaelic', in spite of the shrieks of protest from their better-versed grandchildren. 3. In the Gaelic language itself, the language (be it the Scotch or Irish versions, or any other) is known by the Gaelic word for 'Gaelic' (Gaeilge, Gaeilic, Gaelainn, Gàidhlig etc, depending on local variation...), and NOT by the Gaelic word for 'Irish' (in which case the language would be known as 'Éirinnis') Those are the three main points of my argument. I have 3 or 4 others, as well; but I want to keep it short and non-controversial here, so I'll refrain on this occasion. I imagine it's a similar case in New Zealand (a place I've zero familiarity with), where the original native language is known as Maori (again, zero familiarity, but I'm conjecturing) and probably has a similar word within that language, and when we say in English "He speaks New Zealand", it's a humourous or affectionate way of saying "He speaks New Zealand English". If the New Zealand government tomorrow deems that Maori is now to be called "New Zealandish", I and other non-familiars will continue to call it 'Maori'. Sorry... Does any of all that make any sense to you, Irishpolyglot? Keep up the good work, and if you're ever in Spain, drop by for a chat. I'd be honoured and delighted. I'll even give you a few tips on how to converse in the local whistling lingo, if you fancy. Best wishes, Patchy. P.S. Check me out on Youtube under my name there: Solstisol. Edited by Patchy on 11 November 2010 at 10:51am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5634 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes  Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 18 of 41 11 November 2010 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't agree with your points. 3 sounds logical, but it shows a lack of understanding in the difference between separate languages of the same family.
I call it Gaeilge in the language itself and may even say that word when speaking in English with other Irish people. In Donegal you will definitely hear something similar to "Gaelic", but this is actually how Gaeilg (with no e at the end) is pronounced. It's the word for Irish "Gaeilge" rendered in that dialect, not the English word, and you can immediately hear that it's pronounced with a "g" rather than hard "c" sound. If you call it Gaelic, then that's an "accepted" Americanisation (there are no details on your profile, but let me guess that is where you from) but means nothing in the entire continent where it's an official language. Saying "versions" of Gaelic is immediately admitting a gross confusion with terminology. Irish and Scotts Gaelic are "versions" of Celtic languages, not dialects of one another. It's like saying "versions" of French when referring to French and Italian, but Gaelic isn't even a recognised name of the Irish language. Using "Gaelic" to refer to both Scottish Gaelic and Irish shows no understanding that these are separate (albeit mutually intelligible) languages. If Americans who have no idea what Maori is gave it some other name, even if a large amount of those with no familiarity did, that wouldn't change what it's really called. Keep in mind that the European Union is bigger than the states and even in America it's NOT an official "recognised" term. I've heard countless American linguists correctly call the language Irish. Gaelic is "slang". At best we can say that the non-academic-American-slang word for Irish is Gaelic. I have no argument with that. I don't know where you got the pre-1940s fact from. Perhaps it's true but I'm talking about the modern situation. Whether it was a conspiracy of academics or not is irrelevant if nobody this side of the Atlantic would ever currently say "Gaelic" referring to Irish. Glad you enjoy my Youtube channel! 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Declan1991 Tetraglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6440 days ago 233 posts - 359 votes Speaks: English*, German, Irish, French | Message 19 of 41 12 November 2010 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Edited by Declan1991 on 12 November 2010 at 3:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 20 of 41 12 November 2010 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I thought the guy had already kind of said he was from the west of Ireland.
Remember, guys, that you are on a language forum, and the reason this forum exists is because not everyone speaks the same. I grew up having my "dinner" when most people were having their "lunch", and my "tea" when they were having "dinner".
It's not uncommon for two languages with common roots to end up calling themselves by the same name. The language that now calls itself "Nederlands" is called in English "Dutch" not because of the English people's inability to tell the difference betwee Dutch people and "Duetsch" people, but because they stuck with the name "Dutch" themselves until they changed it for political reasons. People often use this as a spurious justification for Scots being a dialect of English -- they used to call it "Inglis". 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Declan1991 Tetraglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6440 days ago 233 posts - 359 votes Speaks: English*, German, Irish, French | Message 21 of 41 13 November 2010 at 12:04am | IP Logged | |||||
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 22 of 41 13 November 2010 at 11:58am | IP Logged | |||||
"Officially"? How so? Who is the authority on Gaelic? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5634 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 23 of 41 15 November 2010 at 5:57am | IP Logged | |||||
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Sorry for not knowing exactly where Patchy is from. I did say it was a guess.
EDITED by newyorkeric. Edited by newyorkeric on 15 November 2010 at 1:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 24 of 41 15 November 2010 at 10:27am | IP Logged | |||||
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If you are sitting in Scotland, then it is enough to say 'Gaelic', because you then have a nice tre-way system consisting of English, Scots and Gaelic.
If you are sitting in Ireland, then it is OK to say either 'Gaelic' or Irish about the Celtic language, as long as you don't use the word 'Irish' about the local variety of English. If you are sitting in Spain or Denmark then 'Gaelic' is ambiguous. Either you have to specify which Gaelic you are talking about, or you have to resolve the ambiguity by reserving the word "Gaelic" for the Scottish version and calling the Irish one "Irish" (thereby incurring the risk that this is interpreted as the Irish dialect of English). Whichever solution you choose it is a messy situation, comparable to the one surrounding the language name "Bahasa". Edited by Iversen on 15 November 2010 at 10:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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