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How close is Gaelic to English? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5634 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes  Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 25 of 41 15 November 2010 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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@Iversen I agree that it's a messy situation, although I thought I made it clear that in Ireland we do not say "Gaelic". Perhaps (as Patchy suggested) someone born before 1940 might say it, but please trust me on this - "Gaelic" is not Irish, period.
EDIT: @newyorkeric Thanks for tidying up all that mess ;) Edited by irishpolyglot on 15 November 2010 at 2:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 26 of 41 15 November 2010 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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No offense, I was discussing a hypothetical situation where the Irish had to choose a name for their old language. But as you say, they have decided to say "Irish".
By the way: if it had turned out the other way round then I suppose it should have been "Gaeilge" rather than "Gaelic", and that would also have solved the problem. The funny thing is that I hardly know what to call the language in Danish - it is rare that anybody references the Celtic languages here and even rarer that they want to differentiate between them. My guess is that "irsk" still competes with "gælisk" here, and that "gælisk" can refer to both the Irish and the Scottish Celtic language. Edited by Iversen on 15 November 2010 at 3:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 27 of 41 15 November 2010 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | ||
That's a pretty definitive statement. It is, unfortunately, wrong. My mother is Irish, she wasn't born before 1940, and she always called it "Gaelic". So please don't presume to speak for all Irish people, because Some People Talk Differently From You. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Patchy Newbie Joined 5129 days ago 25 posts - 46 votes Speaks: English* | Message 28 of 41 16 November 2010 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | ||
Dear Irishpolyglot. After reading your first outburst ("zero knowledge" etcetera...); which I took on the chin (being the good sport that I am =0); I suggested in my first reply to you that we keep our exchanges in a logical rather than emotive tone. This you proceeded to ignore, and again lashed out with further all-encompassing, dogmatic and derogatory put-downs, without using any real logic to illustrate or back up your points, and apparently not having even properly read my posts. On seeing that you consider yourself infallible on the subject, and therefore unwilling to learn or accept new information; but mostly because I found your reply rude and offensive; I decided to abstain from further interaction in order to avoid any more misled but very belittling and patronising retorts, paying heed to a very wise and often-used old Gaelic saying from my grandparents' generation: "D'ordaigh Dia an chontúirt a sheachaint". However, today my curiosity had me peep in again and; probably against my better judgement; drop this resolve, as I saw that there are others on this thread who are not closed-minded. Therefore, let me first sum up your points, and then I'll be pleased to reply to some of them individually, as much to rectify your depiction of my ignorance on the subject as to clear up some of the confusion you've caused. To sum up: In your reply to me you were misled on every point. You've got it wrong, kiddo, and it's maybe not even your fault. As you cling so unwavering and stubbornly to these misguided assertions of yours, I can only assume that the nationalist Irish education system's indoctrination has been particularly effective in your case; achieving almost hypnotic results; so I hope my following corrections of your mis-truths will at least serve to help others get a clearer picture of the issue. I already know that you are not to be moved on your stance, but for the sake of those willing to listen; and for the sake of truth; I will try over the next few hours to reply to some of your previous points, if I may. Again, please don't take this personally, as it is simply a difference of opinions on language, a subject that hardly deserves heated debate. Or is curiosity going to have this old cat killed again? Best wishes, Patchy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5634 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 29 of 41 16 November 2010 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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I argue so confidently because I was born and raised in Ireland and know what people in my country call the language.
Cainntear, you never said when you're mother moved to Scotland, if she speaks Irish herself, how old she really is, etc. Perhaps previous generations of people who have long emigrated really did call it Gaelic, or perhaps she is being influenced by having lived in Scotland. I can only speak for the modern situation of what my family, friends, TV, radio, newspapers, trips around the country, pop culture, music, and of course official literature etc. call it. And that's not Gaelic. Yes I am being definitive. I'm amazed at how little both of you think the relevance of someone who is actually Irish counts in this discussion! Yes, I do think this gives me more authority on the subject than you. @Patchy I am very frank, but I think the need for condescending and insulting language does nothing to reinforce your opinion. Please argue facts - I see nothing but emotion in your reply, something you accuse me of so eagerly. Calling me kiddo, dogmatic, unwilling to learn etc. is totally irrelevant to actually giving useful information about the topic at hand. The only thing I see in your argument is a conspiracy theory of the "nationalist Irish education system's indoctrination", without a shred of evidence to back up your ridiculous claims. But if that's all you have to go on, let's presume it's true and that many many years ago that was the name of the language. I still don't care. The year is 2010, let's focus on what it's called today please. The country also used to be called Hibernia by the Romans, but you can't expect people to call it that today. Edited by irishpolyglot on 16 November 2010 at 11:12pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Patchy Newbie Joined 5129 days ago 25 posts - 46 votes Speaks: English* | Message 30 of 41 16 November 2010 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | ||
Your criticism here is; as usual; vague, but I'll try to address what I think you're trying to say. Gaelic; or if you prefer, the various Gaelic languages; comprises of a group of geographically ever-varying versions (accents with local lexical and morphological differences) which; when the whole population of a large continuous tract of the western coasts and islands of the British Isles all the way from southern Munster in Ireland to the very northern parts of Scotland spoke Gaelic; slowly and gradually could be very roughly separated into many dialects, the closer ones mutually intelligible, the further apart ones proportionately less so. With the break-up of this continuous geographic block, each isolated block became a quite separate variant of Gaelic, with continuing disagreement as to which are dialects and which are not, which are separate languages and which are not. I therefore; in order to not take sides in which is accent, dialect or separate language; refer to every variety as Gaelic. One reason is that many of the motives for divisions in classification are political rather than linguistic. For example; if we take mutual intelligibility as the yardstick of whether one is a dialect or a language, we have to consider that (in recent history) a Gaelic polyglot from anywhere in Ulster (and especially Rathlin island); would quite easily understand and converse with a native Gaelic polyglot from anywhere in the southern Scottish islands and coastal areas (but especially Kintyre, Arran and Islay), while not having a clue of what a Gaelic-speaker from Munster was saying, or any hope of much mutual understanding. However, I also know that in the modern state of affairs, the Gaelic variants are nowadays; for political as well as linguistic convenience; generally grouped by most people into three languages: Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic. The fact that Irish and Manx nationalists try to play down the fact that "their" variants are to a large extent very close and often mutually intelligible with the Scottish variants, is not my problem. I go along with most other Gaelic-speakers that I know when I call all of these variants; be they accents, dialects or separate languages; Gaelic. I don't care what the various local politicians and their party lines; most of whom don't speak any variety of Gaelic; recommend. 'Just a thought, Patchy. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5634 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 31 of 41 16 November 2010 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the history lesson, but whether it's for political or linguistic reasons is irrelevant. The one language of "Gaelic" split up over a thousand years ago and how similar you think they are is irrelevant when it comes to actually naming them when an agreed convention is in place.
Language similarity is an entirely different discussion and could be applied to many many others that nobody could possibly argue don't deserve their individual names, despite similarities with neighbours. I only say "Irish Gaelic" to foreigners who probably didn't even know Celtic languages still existed, or to distinguish it from other Celtic languages. Otherwise it's Irish. So to echo your last line, I don't care what you or *anyone* "recommends". It's called Irish in the 21st century by politicians, children, school teachers, engineers, and linguists, please get over it ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Patchy Newbie Joined 5129 days ago 25 posts - 46 votes Speaks: English* | Message 32 of 41 17 November 2010 at 12:36am | IP Logged | ||
Yes, the Ulster (and Achill, in Mayo) variant of the Gaelic word for 'Gaelic' is 'Gaeilig' (also spelt 'Gaedhilic' and 'Gaeilic'), which is actually a much older form of the name than Connaught's 'Gaeilge'. 'Gaeilge' (or 'Gaeilige') was once only the genitive form for 'Gaeilig', as it still is in Donegal and Achill. It is from this oldest variant that the English word 'Gaelic' was formed, which explains the similarities in pronunciation. By the same token, the word 'Gaeilig' is; although often spelt with a final G; pronounced with a K-like sound at the closing consonant, much as in the Gaelic name 'Pádraig'. My reference was; however; to when these Gaelic-speakers speak about the language in English, they call it 'Gaelic', a practice I often hear native Gaelic-speakers use not only in Donegal, but also in Mayo and Galway. I'm not telling you or anyone else not to call the language 'Irish' if they so wish, but don't tell me and others who have slipped the net of the renaming and re-educating process to not call it Gaelic, as it has always been called. 'Just a thought, Patchy. Edited by Patchy on 17 November 2010 at 2:07am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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