|
 |
Native speakers precision | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Spanky Senior Member Canada Joined 5957 days ago 1021 posts - 1714 votes  Studies: French | Message 25 of 31 28 October 2010 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Sometimes native speakers have problems even with straightforward aspects of their own language. I am not sure where on the CEFR scale one would rate the following (assume it was delivered by a frequent public speaker in an Alaskan, ex-governor-ish accent): "Marco Rubio started and kinda taking on the establishment and mavericky, going rogue, you know, doing it." 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Kounotori Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5345 days ago 136 posts - 264 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 26 of 31 28 October 2010 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Having learned the Russian case system, it definitely looks like something a native speaker should be able to handle. The Polish case system doesn't look that formidable, either. Finnish cases, by the way, do have a lot of variation. Even though the genitive ending (-n) is easy to learn, applying it is a whole other kind of business. Consonants mutate, get lost, and vowels appear. All of these following words end in -a or -ä in the nominative, for example, but what happens when we put them into the genitive singular and plural? kissa - kissan, kissojen (cat - cat's, cats') koira - koiran, koirien (dog, etc.) pöytä - pöydän, pöytien (table) jalka - jalan (k ist kaput, why I do not know), jalkojen (foot) Granted, the Finnish system is simpler in some aspects. There are no genders, for example, for which I'm pretty glad. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Gosia Diglot Newbie Poland Joined 5321 days ago 6 posts - 9 votes Speaks: Polish*, English | Message 28 of 31 29 October 2010 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I said that mistakes in spoken language happen sometimes. "Often" refered to the fact that I prefer to correct myself, not just let it go. I meant that we rather stopped to correct our mistake than hoped that other people didn't notice it. I didn't say that we often make mistakes while speaking Polish.
The main declination rules are pretty obvious and probably not so much difficult to remember but there are, of course, many exceptions. But anyway as a native speaker I don't think of any rules when I'm speaking Polish. I just know ("feel") how to say something. And if I have some trouble sometimes then it is with words that are not used for every day. It's really difficult to explain such an issue without examples (which cannot be understood by people who don't speak those particular language). And what just came to my mind about language mistakes... In polish we have quite difficult orthography which is a problem in writting but in spoken language it's not. For example "u" and "ó". You pronounce these letters exactly the same but when you write them you need to know which one should be used in those exact word. Once a year there is organised "national dictation" that is participated by hundreds of people, also famous actors and politicians. It's broadcasted on tv, as well. Some man is reading a text aloud and all these people are writting it down. Then all paper works are checked and the winner is revealed - the one who made the least mistakes. So here you can see that Polish isn't that easy. I like to meet foreigners speaking Polish, I really appreciate they made an effort to learn our language. But most of them that I have met keep making mistakes in declination and conjugation. I think native speakers also have a right to make mistakes from time to time. And I believe it's better to correct yourself than pretend you didn't make any mistake if you did.
You're right, cmj. Being native speaker doesn't mean that you know how to write/pronounce every word. There are always problems with words that you don't encounter every day. Edited by Gosia on 29 October 2010 at 9:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Thatzright Diglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5673 days ago 202 posts - 311 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English Studies: French, Swedish, German, Russian | Message 29 of 31 01 November 2010 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Hm, why? Wouldn't it be a lot more fascinating if we had them too? : D I'd imagine that deciding whether to go with -lla/-llä or -ssa/-ssä as a case ending could cause difficulty in some rare situations for a native, for example with unknown words. I actually recall thinking about this for a little while while writing an essay last month, only I can't remember what the word in question was... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5227 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 30 of 31 01 November 2010 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
This largely depends on how you define 'modestly educated'. Over the last 30 years spelling has become atrocious in Spain, even among the most junior members of university faculties, let alone students. And I mean spelling mistakes no foreign learner would ever make, no matter the level. Edit: recast. Edited by mrwarper on 01 November 2010 at 6:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5227 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 31 of 31 01 November 2010 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I think this happens because we think at such speed that we can change our mind about what we're saying... in the middle of a phrase. So, you think something, start saying it, change your mind about it and finish accordingly. If this implies no structural changes to the sentence, no one has to notice immediately; if it does, you may correct yourself as not to look foolish, or expect everyone else to understand what happened, which they do most of the time... For example, you want to turn an statement into a question half way through - you're speaking Spanish, you raise the intonation at the end. You're speaking Japanese, you add the 'ka' marker at the end. You're speaking English... you're boned: you change the intonation and get that part right, but you apparently forgot to put 'do' at the beginning and swap subject and verb, no matter what :) I'm sure we can think of things that can and cannot happen to you depending on the language and the exact phrase, but I'd be interested in knowing if others have found themselves facing this... 1 person has voted this message useful |
If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login. If you are not already registered you must first register
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
