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How many people can actually speak? | ||
Tags: Youtube Polyglot | Speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 33 of 45 16 January 2013 at 11:31am | IP Logged |
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S_allard wrote that ""high levels of speaking proficiency are nearly always correlated with starting early, a multilingual background (family, schooling) and living in different countries." And taken exactly as it stands I can hardly disagree. But what about those who didn't have a multilingual childhood and who have limited access to environments and individuals speaking their target languages? Can they still learn languages - and not only that, but learn them at a reasonably high level? Without that possibility then it can be hard to explain polyglotism beyond maybe the 5 languages of Splog's acquaintance (who seems to have had a rare combination of early experiences).
I would of course answer this question with yes, but I see two main problems. One is pronunciation, where it seems that an early start has more to say than in other aspects of language. Nevertheless I do believe that a focused effort, probably involving a trained assistant, can succeed in remove all traces of an accent from your pronunciation. However I personally I won't pay for a qualified trainer, and judging your own pronunciation against a standard is hard to do .. so my chances are slim. Btw. getting an idiomatically correct language poses a similar problem, but for some reason it seems to be easier to absorb idioms through informal communication than it is to get the last faulty patterns eradicated from your pronunciation. The other problem is the choice of target languages, where the ones you tackle late in life may be those where the sources and application possibilities are rarer - or in other words: you learned the easily accessible languages early in life, and now you are faced with the exotic or rare and endangered ones. And without using a language it is of course hard or impossible to activate a language in the first place and to keep it active later. But all these problems can be solved, if you make an effort and have reasonably good tools at your disposal. The problem with the 'big' language course programs is that they have to appeal to people who really aren't willing to make the necessary effort. Edited by Iversen on 06 February 2013 at 12:16am 8 persons have voted this message useful | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 34 of 45 16 January 2013 at 1:46pm | IP Logged |
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Another excellent post by @Iversen, as to be expected, even if we don't always agree. As he so correctly points out, as adults not living in the ideal circumstances for learning a target language we can still get very good results with the right tools, methods and techniques. And herein lies the problem.
The original motivation for starting this thread - and I may have exaggerated a bit - was the feeling that much of the advice from the Youtube polyglots and the lofty promises of the various language courses and self-teaching products did not reflect the true nature of how these people learned their languages. I'm not saying that people are being dishonest. In fact, I think the polyglots and the course providers are offering what they think is good advice. It's just that I see glowing testimonials and reviews everywhere and I don't know how many course offerings but no great results. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Richard Burton Newbie Spain Joined 4332 days ago 34 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Ancient Greek* | Message 35 of 45 16 January 2013 at 3:20pm | IP Logged |
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>>I just saw a number of youtube interviews with some very well known polyglots. What irks me is that most do not say that a) exposure at the earliest age and b) spending time in the country (preferably with a host family) are by far the two most important success factors in achieving high proficiency.
I dont see why you say that. If you watched the ones we all are thinking, most of the languages they speak they didnt get any exposure as young critters or spend time in host families. The wouldn't say something against their own experience. See Mezzofanti in this site, he never came out of his country or even his town, but of course got exposure, today even with more reason you dont need to displace your physical body to get exposure. Most of this constant mantra in unsuccessful lerners is because of the inability to reproduce phonological systems, that they feel connected to age, that's correct only in a way; laymen in linguistics have these naive idea you get a phonological system by "osmosis" by means of rubbing elbows with natives; this is not so at all; you see both unsuccesful and successful lerners both in the country and out of it; however, there are specific ways to nudge the ability into good shape again and it develops spectacularly once you get the knack of it. It is one of the things that Simcot and the others convey rather adequately. As the others I dont see there is more language learning related hype than there is to any other pursue. Also it is your job not listening or believing, or realizing it is an opinion they are voicing. Opinions should not bother you, since we all know for a fact that different learning styles do exist; also that's what often people are demanding from them. Kaufmann in the past probably was asked a thousand times how he did it, so he started explaining his inclinations, even later selling it, as a hobbyist, it is not serious theories on language acquisition or anything. Edited by Richard Burton on 16 January 2013 at 3:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| MixedUpCody Senior Member United States Joined 5256 days ago 144 posts - 280 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin | Message 36 of 45 18 January 2013 at 4:53am | IP Logged |
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Learning a language is like losing weight, in that everyone knows the answer, and it sucks (if you don't enjoy exercise or studying). Obviously, no one is going to buy a book called "Eat More Salad, and Take Up Running", just as no one will buy "Spend several Thousand Hours of Your Life Studying a Language". In fact, no one will buy anything at all if it isn't offering something to make matters easier. So I really don't know why you would be surprised that the industry sells quick-fix panaceas.
As to your question about YouTube polyglots: what would be the use of telling people that exposure at an early age is the most effective method? That is like telling people who want to lose weight: "just be born with a high metabolism". Advice is generally meant to focus on things people can actually control. 10 persons have voted this message useful | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 37 of 45 18 January 2013 at 6:13am | IP Logged |
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I don't like to debate with metaphors and analogies. I'm talking about some Youtube polyglots and language learning products not weight loss products of which I know nothing. Whether it's Michel Thomas or Dr Pimsleur, both now dead, or various living polyglots, people give what they believe is honest advice and methods based on their own experience. That I understand. But is that how they learned all their languages? Certainly to some extent but I'm more than a bit skeptical.
We learn for example that a well-known polyglot studied in Paris and lived in various countries including China and Japan. And he speaks excellent French and Chinese amongst other languages. I'm not saying that anything is wrong with the advice being given or marketed by many people. I'm just saying that I don't see much in terms of results. Edited by s_allard on 18 January 2013 at 6:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4444 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 38 of 45 03 February 2013 at 6:54am | IP Logged |
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Language learning can be a hobby (something you take up for interest than workplace requirement). On
the top of the list is an American man of African descent from Akron Ohio Moses McCormick who according to claims successfully master 50 different languages. Obviously some would fall into the same group of languages in similar geographic locations. And according to claim Moses helped at least 1 language student study a target language and that student successfully completed an university level entrance exam in the target language. He has a unique formula that university professors are studying. The bottom-line is not only for people to learn the grammar & vocabulary but to go out on the street and start a conversation in a given topic. There was 1 video Moses posted he went to a Korean restaurant and started ordering in Korean. The waitress was so impressed (since very few African-American mastered Korean close to native-fluency) that she brought the entire kitchen staff to listen to him speak. If there is 1 magic formula that works for everybody, those who are on Pimsleur or Rosetta Stone should be speaking native-fluency. For many years these are turned into successful commercial products making millions for companies but not everybody succeeded achieving their goal. The 1 thing that worked is that you have to set realistic goals for yourself but at the same time push yourself 1 step further each time. Like you are running the first time you do 1 mile or km. The next time you push to do 1.5. Instead of just picking up grammar & vocabulary in a target language, you push yourself to watch children's TV shows, and eventually listen to TV & radio programs. Always aim just a bit higher than what you are able to do today. The other day I was watching Mandarin videos on a specific topic of interest. I learned 1 word that was used many years ago (during the communist era) but applied in a different context as presented in the video. And in the process I also learned several other associated words & phrases. Edited by shk00design on 03 February 2013 at 7:02am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 39 of 45 03 February 2013 at 11:27pm | IP Logged |
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For me language learning is almost exclusively a hobby - I know Danish, English and a few other languages as a level which gives almost unhindered access to so much material that I have a hard time avoiding it! But there is access and there is access. I have developed methods for the study of written sources which cover my needs, and which could be applied on most languages in this world - although I would need some additional techniques for languages with idiogrammatical writing systems. One of these methods is the use of bilingual texts, another is three column word lists and a third is green sheets for learning grammatical tables and rules. And writing these things myself is a basic tenet of these methods.
But it makes a tremendous difference whether I hear a language or not on TV. Internet TV is a useful source, but mainly for languages with I already know fairly well because I normally will be using my PC for other things when it is switched on, and then I'll just have the speech running in the background. But availability is not enough: to be useful a spoken source must be comprehensible, i.e. I must be able to follow it in spite of a few missing words and opaque constructions here and there. This is fairly easy to achieve when you know a related language, but the first language in a group will always be a problem. Going to a relevant country will obviously give its language a boost, but going there too early means that I won't be speaking the language (or just say isolated phrases and hope for an understandable answer). In that case a visit will mainly be useful through the written sources I bring home - plus some feeling for the sound of the language and hopefully some nide holiday memories - but the effect on my speaking skills will be minimal. There are people here who are better at picking up words from smalltalk than I am, but for me at least it is a problem that I don't have a Russian and a Greek and and Irish TV channel with subtitles, which I can have running while I work at my computer. With the deterioration in program quality I may end up with two computer screens instead of one, and that might solve the availability problem. Small things like that can delay learning the spoken side of a language far too long, and the result can be that you settle for leaving a languages as something you can read and write and maybe even speak in a void - but which you haven't ever tried to use in an actual conversation. As my Russian and Low German or new language projects like Irish. OK, what to do (apart from taking a genuine quality course or hiring a private teacher)? I think my recent madness expedition through the Greek vocabulary gave me a boost because I now can think much more freely in Greek without missing simple words all the time. And for me with my starting point in the written language thinking in a language is a necessary condition for being able to participate in a conversation. If I can't think in Greek, I won't even try to speak it. The other half of a conversational skill is listening, and here the thing I really would like to have is a source of relevant TV documentaries with subtitles in something comprehensible PLUS some good speech generators - and luckily the quality of those on the internet is rapidly becoming better. In many cases I would gladly settle for being able to pronunce a language as well as a one of those synthethizers. Clearly I don't say you can learn perfect pronunciation from such an apparatus, but if I can't understand a synthesizer which reads a sentence I have seen in print and given it myself, then I wouldn't really expect to understand real human speech without a written crutch. And one thing more: if I speak to a human then I feel uneasy about not seeing that person at the same time. I am much less paranoid about listening to a machine. It may even have a repeat button. So to answer the initial question once again: no you don't have to have spent your childhood in a multilingual environment, and you don't have to live in a multicultural setting or move from country to country your whole life. But if you don't have those things there are things you need to compensate, and you have to identify those and find out how to get them. And if you for some reason don't get the tools you need - such as ample comprehensible oral input - then there are certain things you won't be able to achieve within a reasonable time. Edited by Iversen on 04 February 2013 at 6:05pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| zerothinking Senior Member Australia Joined 6372 days ago 528 posts - 772 votes Speaks: English* | Message 40 of 45 04 February 2013 at 1:15pm | IP Logged |
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You are completely correct. The mainstream language learning complex is by and large completely useless and selling false hopes and lousy methods that are meant to make you feel like you are effortlessly learning, when you are effortlessly learning nothing. On the other hand, the polyglot community online are actually giving useful advice and methods! However, I do think they assume too much about other learners abilities. You don't have to have early exposure, but it definitely helps. You don't have to live in the country, but it can help. I do believe in listening to the language and reading extensively, getting plenty of exposure, but at the end of the day you have to sit down, get into the trenches and learn it. I think that many of the polyglots are not doing anyone any favors by saying language learning has to be great fun and that it is easy. I think they are only putting down their own and other people's achievements. Learning languages is not easy. Learning languages is not always a lot of fun. KNOWING a language is fun. Practicing your language and realizing how much progress you've made is fun. Sometimes, yes, sometimes you have fun learning a language. Sometimes you get into the flow of it and start to enjoy the process, but I suspect people think something is inherently wrong with them if they aren't loving every moment and if it's a struggle to remember things sometimes. Memorizing word lists is not easy, and its not always fun, but it works. I do not for a second buy the idea that if you learn a word out of context you will never know the whole meaning. Absolute rubbish. You learn the nuances of words from extensive reading which comes later. That's exactly how children do it. Children do not learn all the nuances of every word when they learn them. Yes, they hear them in context, but they have to, they have no other way and they are not just learning words they are learning the very concepts themselves. We are not children! We know the main meaning of words, we do not need to relearn concepts. Nuances are important, but at the beginning learning just one main meaning for a word is perfectly acceptable and actually I believe preferable! You add the nuances to the word as your exposure to the language increases. Learning sentences and phrases is also important, but I do that in conjunction with learning words. Hell, I even learn grammar. Eventually it does become automatic and that's what you want, but learning grammar is a quick way to get it into your mind and also it helps to notice the structures you are encountering because it further anchors them in your mind. I learn languages mainly because I love knowing them. If I can enjoy the process, which I try to do and often do, then that's a bonus. I'm not against trying to enjoy the process, but I'll forgo a bit of enjoyment if it means getting to the end result quicker.
In terms of there not being many people who speak a foreign language, once again, that's because it's hard work! You have to diligently study daily for a long time. It takes dedication and endurance. It's no small accomplishment and few people can stick it out because few of them actually want to learn one enough. And then to top it off, they use horrible methods so they are will struggle even more even if they do have dedication. Language learning is not easy and it's not always fun. Edited by zerothinking on 04 February 2013 at 1:37pm 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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