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Montenegrin | ||
Tags: Serbo-Croatian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5278 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes  Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 49 of 53 06 October 2010 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
Chung, this'll be my last on the subject. I've had enough of it, just like the rest of the forum. First off, people are what they consider themselves. Nobody is "pure" and all nations have multiple roots and it's not my aim to say people X are *really* Y but don't know it. That's ridiculous. No, I never claimed that Stokavian as such "belongs" to the Serbs. I never even claimed that all Stokavian dialects emerged from the Serbs. As you correctly point out, there are at least two Stokavian dialects that are primarily spoken by Croats (Western Ikavian and Slavonian) and there is one Stokavian dialect specific to Bosnia that is largely but not exclusively spoken by Muslims but also Serbs and Croats (East Bosnian). I don't know how these dialects originated and I won't even go into speculating on it. I merely pointed out that the particular Stokavian dialect that forms the basis of the standard language in Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Serbia is the Eastern Herzegovina dialect. And this dialect *did* originate amongst the Serbs of Eastern Herzegovina and was spread throughout the region (not just north and west, but also south, and east). It was spread by people who migrated out of economic interest or perhaps under duress from the Ottomans. And if you looked at an ethnic map, you would see that it almost perfectly aligns with Serb settlement in Croatia and Bosnia. Dialec t map Ethnic map The fact that other groups now speak this language (whether through subjective changes in ethnic self- consciousness, through areal contact, through religious conversions, etc.) is irrelevant. And the fact that it may be spoken in areas in which Serbs no longer live is also irrelevant. Knowledge of the last century of the region's history would be more than illuminating in that regard. It doesn't change its origins nor should our PC manner of pacifying this or that group of nationalists (i.e. making them feel good about themselves) make us discard language history. Castilian is still Castilian when spoken in Cadiz, because it ultimately originated from Castile. Ultimately, I'm not saying that Croats, Bosnian Muslims, or Montenegrins should say that the Serbian language is their literary standard. If it bothers them to say that, they needn't say it. But if the only reason they are modifying their standard languages - by adding letters to the alphabet (Montenegrin), by artificially importing Islamic vocabulary, by creating bizarre new Slavic calques - is to differentiate themselves from Serbs and assert their nationhood, then they might actually consider using a dialect that *didn't* emerge from Serb refugees as their standard language. You correctly point out that in Bosnia and Montenegro, the alternative choices are fairly clear. In Croatia, they would have Cakavian, Kajkavian, Western Ikavian Stokavian, and Slavonian Stokavian to choose from. Cakavian apparently has a decent Renaissance literature, too. But for some reason they refuse to do this and instead take the Eastern Herzegovina dialect and mangle and mutilate it and then name it after themselves, even while spitting venom on the ethnic group from which the dialect originated. And I find that ridiculous. Anyway, I'm done with this. Thanks all for reading. Edited by Merv on 06 October 2010 at 5:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7161 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 50 of 53 06 October 2010 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't completely disagree with your reasoning, Merv, however it is (unfortunately) relevant that other ethnic groups began using something or settled on something that was initially spread by a mass migration of the ancestors of Bosniaks and Serbs. This goes back to my analogy of four kids now laying their hands on the same toy, with each now sanctimoniously claiming ownership of it.
Anyway to reiterate the answers relevant to the original post, if people want to learn Montenegrin today, they'd be out of luck since Montenegrin hasn't been standardized yet. A serious language textbook or course for foreigners can't gain much credibility unless it is backed by something consistent or coherent. However one'll do just fine using materials with "Bosnian", "Croatian", "Serbian" or "Serbo-Croatian" in the title. The differences between the variants and what Montenegrins have learned in school are trivial and hardly worth fighting over unless one wants to make a point of emphasizing national allegiance or reconciling with nationalist dogmas. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6948 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 51 of 53 06 October 2010 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
A more common viewpoint would be that it is irrelevant how a particular language came to be spoken in a given area or by a particular group. A language can't be owned. Edited by frenkeld on 06 October 2010 at 7:52pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6452 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 52 of 53 06 October 2010 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
JNA General Pavle Strugar was sentenced to 7 and 1/2 years in prison for his role in the shelling of Dubrovnik, Croatia, during the conflict accompanying the breakup of Yugoslavia. It has been proven that he lied that Boka Kotorska was about to be attacked by 30,000 Croatian nationalists. "On 17 July 2008, the Appeals Chamber convicted Strugar of two additional counts: the crime of devestation not justified by military necessity and the crime of unlawful attacks on civilian objects." That's from the Hague Tribunal and it needs to be mentioned. Thank you again for putting me in my place. I was under the impression you were the one who opened the can of worms and brought the politics here. And bye. Edited by reineke on 06 October 2010 at 8:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7020 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 53 of 53 09 October 2010 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Please remember that this is a language learning forum and the discussion of politics is not allowed. Feel free to continue this discussion either by PM or on another forum. I hope that the OP had his question answered because this thread is now closed.
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