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Modern Greek = An uncodified language? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| John Smith Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6043 days ago 396 posts - 542 votes  Speaks: English*, Czech*, Spanish Studies: German | Message 1 of 10 13 October 2010 at 8:50am | IP Logged | |||||
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I am having a very hard time learning Modern Greek. None of the dictionaries I have come across include the irregular plural forms of nouns. I'm no expert but it seems to me that Modern Greek is quite an irregular language. All the dictionaries I have at home (I have 3) only tell you the gender of the noun. Nothing else. It is quite frustrating. How am I supposed to decline a noun if I don't know what pattern to follow? Also my dictionaries don't even distinguish between irregular and regular verbs. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 10 13 October 2010 at 10:51am | IP Logged | |||||
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I get my information from my grammar (Routledge). Basically there is a modern pattern, and there are remnants from old stages - and these often concern words that have something to do with administration and scholarship (μια λέξη, δύο λέξεις, μια φράση, δύο φράσεις). I'm not near my Greek dictionaries right now, but when I get back home I'll check which ones give information about the plural forms and which don't do so.
However I know that I have dictionaries that hint at changes in the aorist stem of verbs, and which also indicate vowels in the past tense ending of verbs with 1.p.s. present ending on stressed -ώ . Again the rule is: identify the typical patterns, and then the number of exceptions is manageable. EDIT: I can see that my Langenscheidt Taschenwörterbuch (German <--> Greek) indicates aorist formation, men not plural formation of nouns. My Greek-Danish dictionary doesn't indicate those things (it seems to be written for Greeks) - but sometimes the examples contain a clue. Honestly, this is not good enough! Edited by Iversen on 13 October 2010 at 9:06pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6143 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 3 of 10 13 October 2010 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yes, Modern Greek is quite an irregular language. I can only think of one verb, for example, that is completely regular and follows all of the supposed "rules." A lot of this just would have to be absorbed through exposure to the language I think.
What do you mean by irregular plurals? Words like λέξη and φράση don't follow the normal η -> ες pattern, but they do follow a pattern, I'm just not sure how you would know that. Words like εξέταση and ερώτηση also follow the same pattern, so maybe it has something to do with ending in something like -ση/-ξη? For verbs, here is a site that has the conjugated forms of lots of verbs which you might find helpful: http://modern-greek-verbs.tripod.com/contents.html EDIT: Upon revisiting this post, I realized that the "one completely regular verb" also has some irregular forms. Oops. ;) Edited by ellasevia on 16 October 2010 at 10:02pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| John Smith Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6043 days ago 396 posts - 542 votes Speaks: English*, Czech*, Spanish Studies: German | Message 4 of 10 15 October 2010 at 10:19am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks for the info
@ Ellasevia. I had a mini panic attack after looking at that list. lol. Do they have better dictionaries in Greece? Anyone here Greek??? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1qaz2wsx Diglot Groupie Greece Joined 5374 days ago 98 posts - 124 votes Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Albanian | Message 5 of 10 15 October 2010 at 10:47am | IP Logged | |||||
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In Greece there are nouns dictionaries (λεξικό ουσιαστικών) for natives which you can buy online,too.I haven't checked the content of such a book but I think it's the most relevant you can find.
Check this link out: http://www.biblionet.gr/main.asp?page=showbook&bookid=154009 Edited by 1qaz2wsx on 15 October 2010 at 10:53am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Nudimmud Groupie United States Joined 5193 days ago 87 posts - 161 votes Studies: Greek, Korean | Message 6 of 10 16 October 2010 at 10:42am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not Greek, but I do own the Νεο Ελληνικο Λεξικο dictionary which does have information on some irregular verbs, though it seems to be inconsistent on when such information is provided. But, it provides little about nouns except for gender. However, while the Greek nominal system is rather complex, it's not especially irregular. In fact, I can't think of a single genuinely irregular noun. For example there is a class of feminine nouns that ends in -ος, which is typically a masculine ending; while this class is small small, it's not really considered irregular. There is a class of nouns (and adjectives) of foreign origin that are completely non-inflected and because it's unpredictable, the above mentioned dictionary does label them as undeclinable. I'm wondering if maybe you're perhaps reading materials that are too far advanced for the grammar you've covered to-date? I remember having this problem early on in my studies -- for instance I would try and look up the word τα γράμματα in the dictionary by thinking that the root word was το γράμματο, not being aware that it was a special class of neuter nouns: those ending in -μα, that had a plural different from the the -ο class. Of course, as mentioned above, the verb system is notoriously irregular, to the point where it's been said that there is no such thing as a regular Greek verb. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| John Smith Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6043 days ago 396 posts - 542 votes Speaks: English*, Czech*, Spanish Studies: German | Message 7 of 10 16 October 2010 at 11:55am | IP Logged | |||||
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maybe not irregular but unpredictable???
E.g. both Poli (city) and agapi (love) have the same ending in the singular. In the plural, however, they take different endings. Polis and agapes. The stress also moves around in some words. Take a look at http://www.foundalis.com/lan/grknouns.htm Edited by John Smith on 16 October 2010 at 11:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Nudimmud Groupie United States Joined 5193 days ago 87 posts - 161 votes Studies: Greek, Korean | Message 8 of 10 16 October 2010 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
You do have a point, just by looking at πόλη you would not be able to figure out from the fact that it's feminine and ends in -η that it belongs to the class of nouns that form their plural in -εις. But there is a rule for this class which is pretty accurate: members are the words πόλη, πίστη and pretty much all nouns ending in -ση, -ξη.
This too, while admittedly complex, is pretty close to being predictable. Some rules being - accent must be on the last three syllables of the word. - accent is persistent unless forced to change due to another rule. - if the accent is in the third to the last position in the nominative singular it will move to the second to the last position in the genitive plural, unless it's forced to move to the last position by another rule. - Nouns fitting a certain category move their accent to the last position in the the genitive plural: masculines in -ίας, ης, feminines in -α, -η and neuters in -ι -ος (with a few exceptions such as nouns declined like μετέρα or πόλη, etc.) NOTE: it's pretty clear here that I'm quibbling over whether a noun is irregular or not. Pretty much what I'm saying is that if you have an advanced level Modern Greek text book with a complete grammar or a dedicated grammar book, it's possible to learn enough rules to decline pretty much all Modern Greek nouns, but the rules are complex with lots of exceptions and sub categories. However, with verbs such an approach isn't really feasible (at least in my experience) and you pretty much have to learn them by learning the general guidelines, learning the most common irregular verbs and then listening to and reading lots of Greek. Edited by Nudimmud on 16 October 2010 at 9:50pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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