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Well I guess Im learning Russian... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5796 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes  Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 113 of 248 12 March 2009 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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rafey
The free order of words is one of most difficult things of Russian. There isn't any clear and accuracy rules about it. For example, "Каждый знает, где Флорида расположена" isn't necessary mean the annoy "answer". 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 114 of 248 13 March 2009 at 3:47am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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March 12th – Day 31
----------------------------------------------------------- Russian Vocabulary -(+4)=> 408 ***Disruption Disrupted....progress now coming back online.*** Nouns – Part 1-7 => Complete Nouns - Part 8 => (9/50) => Under Review Verbs – Part 1 => (42/50) => Under Review Verbs – Part 2 => (6/50) => Under Review Verbs - Part 3 => (1/50) => Under Review Verbs 4-5 => Pending Daily Quick Review => Complete Daily Deep Listening => Complete Grammar Study => Pending ---------------------------------------------------------- Chinese Vocabulary -(+0)=> 4 Nouns - Part 1 (4/50) => Under Review Edited by Brian_N on 13 March 2009 at 3:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 115 of 248 13 March 2009 at 5:31am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
As you know, in Russian the (word order*1) in sentences is free. It is correct to say: "Этот стол чёрный", "Чёрный этот стол", "Чёрный стол этот", "Этот чёрный стол" etc. The common meaning of all (these) versions is ((identical)the same)*2), but the (word order*1) ((does have a influence on the accent)*3), (nuance of the meaning of the sentence.)*4 As I wrote above, "Каждый знает, где расположена Флорида" is a neutral version. But when somebody asks "Where is Florida?", (he*5) may receives two (different responses). Firstly,( he*5) may (receive) the right answer: "(Florida is the state of USA*6); it is on a peninsula () (in) (the) south-(eastern)(USA*7)". Secondly, this question may annoy (the receiver) and (they may respond with): "Каждый знает, где Флорида расположена". This is not (a) (correct) answer, it means: "(Everybody) (knows) where Florida is, but you ask about it. Are you (an) idiot?"*8 Of course, (in) (the) above I gave only one (example) of (the) many (that) (are) possible, () (by) changing the (word order*1) in a sentence. In () speech (intonation) is more important (). But () intonation is absent in written form and therefore it () ((needs) (to) use*9) either (a) special (word order) or additional words. *1 – order of words is correct and perfectly understandable, however English speakers would just use “word order”. *2-identicial is correct and understandable, “the same” can also be used in its place. *3-Yes, “or affects” could also be used – “but the word order does affect accent” *4-nuance? Yes, it is an English word, but I’ve never encountered it before. A word of caution, when conversing with native English speakers (especially verbally) try to shy away from using too many higher level words. Mixing highly advanced vocabulary with an accent is a great way to offend native English speakers...it creates an impression of arrogance. Try “does have an influence on the accent and it slightly modifies/changes the meaning of the sentence” *5-"he" is understandable and correct, however because English speaking countries tend to be “politically correct” it would be better to use “they” because it could be a woman asking the question. *6-“Flordia is the state of USA” – buy using ‘the’ in this sentence is implies that Flordia is the state/status/condition of the USA, or that Florida is more important than the other states, i.e. “the state”/”thee state.“ Change “the” to “a”. *7-USA should be changed to “United States” , I don’t know why but using USA here doesn’t sound right.... *8-Could also use “Are you an idiot? Everybody knows where Florida is.” – in addition to its meaning, it also implies that some asked where Florida is. *9 – “needs to use” can be replace with “requires” – ‘therefore it requires either a special word....’ Edited by Brian_N on 13 March 2009 at 5:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5796 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 116 of 248 13 March 2009 at 10:28am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
In Russian the loanword "нюанс" uses often and I was assured that "nuance" uses often too.
Western "Politically correct" is one of things that in Russia causes laughter or "vomiting" :) For example, most people of us think that calling black man/woman as "Afro-American" is foolishness at least because they are really black and for us calling they "black" (or "negro") is only the statement of fact without any bad shade (we use the word "негр" -- this is the loneword, of course). Really, if somebody hates the coloured, he/she will hate they independently of a word using for calling they. In Russian many words that naming occupations, positions etc. have only the male forms. For example: "врач" or "доктор" (doctor), "президент" (president), "директор" (school head or factory manager) etc. In common parlance it is often use female forms: "врачиха", "докторша", "директриса" etc., but the Russian literary language hasn't these forms. Edited by SII on 13 March 2009 at 10:38am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| rafey Newbie United States Joined 5764 days ago 24 posts - 25 votes Speaks: English* | Message 117 of 248 13 March 2009 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I use the word nuance nearly every day regarding one thing or another. It is quite a common word meaning to distinguish minor differences in speech, behavior, flavors, etc. It is used rather commonly around here. I never really thought of it as a particulary advanced word. Never the less, the point is well made to avoid sounding arrogant, especially in a non-native language.
Political correctness is viewed in the United States as rather absurd, also. There are many TV programs, and so forth, which make fun of this exagerated (and very unnessesary) emphasis on what I like to call 'exlusionary fears.' To return once more to that troublesome sentence: 'We speak a little Russian.'One might say: 'We ONLY speak a little Russian.' I am not certain how that would be translated. Would you use только ? (мы только говорим небольшого русского) ?? Although I thought of petitioning the Russian Federation to start using articles so as not to confuse us Westerners, I actually find it refreshing how direct on consise the language is without such extras. Ancient Greek was so full of flourishes, it would turn a simple sentence into a lengthy and complicated puzzle ... very Shakespearian, actually. Well, here is a slightly more complex sentence to look at. It seems that these simple sentences can teach us a lot about the language. Я - из Вашингтона, округ Колумбия, но уже (I am not sure how to say 'have been living')15 лет В Форте Валтон Берег , Флорида. Я имею 30-акровое состояние в стране, где я практикую Медицину. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5796 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 118 of 248 14 March 2009 at 12:59am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
rafey
If I understood correctly ("Our Russian is bad"), the best versions are "Мы говорим по-русски только чуть-чуть" and "Мы говорим по-русски лишь немного" (only = только, лишь, исключительно; little = немного, мало, чуть-чуть, слегка; but we use only some of all formally possible combinations, the really using combinations depend on context). But it is most best (I don't khow how say "better than best") version: "Мы едва говорим по-русски" (We speak Russian hardly/only just). If some object (item?) bears a relation to some language, nation or town/locality, we use the construction "по-русски, по-английски, по-московски" etc. For example, "говорить по-русски" (speak Russian) or "котлета по-киевски" (chicken Kiev -- a kind of rissole (?) the recipe of that was invented in Kiev, now it is the capital of Ukraine).
Church Slavonic is worse: translators from Ancient Greek had used these flourishes although in Church Slavonic they are absolutely pointless. Furthermore, the translators often had used Greek's word order although the one (?) of Church Slavonic is usually another...
In whole this sentence is right, but it is some small corrections. 1. The dash in "Я - из Вашингтона" may to be or may not to be. I don't explain why, but it depends to a large extent on context. In this case it is nice to use the dash when you say "Я - из Вашингтона" after someone else who say, for example, "Я из Москвы". But if you say something similar, it is better to skip the dash. In speech the dash pass as small pause. 2. Usually we are not using the name of region/state where well-known town is (Washington, of course, is the well-known). If the name of region/state must be used, there ate two ways for it. When we write post address, the first is country (if need), then region (автономная республика/край/область), subregion (район/автономный округ), town/village, street, number of house and number of flat, for example: "Российская Федерация, Московская область, г. (город) Клин, ул. (улица) Литейная, д. (дом) 10, кв. (квартира) 5". If address gives in less official form, uses reverse order, for example: "Я живу в третьей (3rd) квартире пятнадцатого (15th) дома по улице Садовой в посёлке Дубравный Цимлянского района Ростовской области". 3. The Present Perfect Continuous Tense translates into Russian present tense: "I have been living" if "я живу". But in this sentence "живу" may be omitted: it is understand by context what you do last 15 year. You can say "я уже 15 лет живу в ..." or "я уже 15 лет в ..." -- in the present case these versions are equivalent. 4. Usually the name of settlement don't translate. In USA most known exception is New Orleans - Новый Орлеан. But New York is Нью-Йорк. The names of America's states are often translate: South Dakota - Южная Дакота (the names of regions of other countries also usually translate). In addition, in Russian the multiword names of settlements and fortresses usually write with "-", for example: Ростов-на-Дону (Rostov-on-Don, city in south of Russia on river Don, it often called "the gate of Caucasus"), Нью-Йорк, Форт-Беннинг etc, but Старая Русса, Новый Уренгой, Новый Орлеан (in my opinion, without "-" we write names, one of its part is the adjective). In your case the right translation is "[я живу] в Форт-Валтон-Бич. If you say "Я живу в форте Валтон-Бич", we will think that you live in the fortress which name is Walton Beach (that is possible if you are an soldier garrisoned (?) in this fort).
Probably, you have 30-acre estate in a country and you are a doctor who practise medicine in this country. If my supposition is right, your sentence is wrong. But I don't write now the right version because I don't know the exact meaning of word "country". The word "страна" in modern Russian apply only to the independent state (republic, kingdom etc). For example, USA is страна, Russia is страна, but any part of USA or Russia isn't страна. Synonym for "страна" is "государство", but the first uses mainly in relation to area, nation, culture etc and the second uses mainly in relation to government and other official structures, although it isn't any exact rules about using these words. The second meaning of "country" is "сельская местность", area where aren't big settlements and industry and where are farms, pastures etc. Also "country" can designate some territory, area without any special attributes. Edited by SII on 14 March 2009 at 1:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 119 of 248 14 March 2009 at 5:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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March 12th – Day 32
----------------------------------------------------------- Russian Vocabulary -(+7)=> 415 Nouns – Part 1-7 => Complete Nouns - Part 8 => (9/50) => Under Review Verbs – Part 1 => (42/50) => Under Review Verbs – Part 2 => (6/50) => Under Review Verbs - Part 3 => (1/50) => Under Review Verbs 4-5 => Pending Daily Quick Review => skipped Daily Deep Listening => skipped Grammar Study => Pending ---------------------------------------------------------- Chinese Vocabulary -(+0)=> 4 Nouns - Part 1 (4/50) => Under Review 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 120 of 248 14 March 2009 at 5:28am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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In Russian the loanword "нюанс" uses often and I was assured that "nuance" uses often too. Western "Politically correct" is one of things that in Russia causes laughter or "vomiting" :) For example, most people of us think that calling black man/woman as "Afro-American" is foolishness at least because they are really black and for us calling they "black" (or "negro") is only the statement of fact without any bad shade (we use the word "негр" -- this is the loneword, of course). Really, if somebody hates the coloured, he/she will hate they independently of a word using for calling they. In Russian many words that naming occupations, positions etc. have only the male forms. For example: "врач" or "доктор" (doctor), "президент" (president), "директор" (school head or factory manager) etc. In common parlance it is often use female forms: "врачиха", "докторша", "директриса" etc., but the Russian literary language hasn't these forms.[/QUOTE] Nuance, yeah I’ve never heard the term used in conversation. Asked about a dozen people today, only 1 said yes. So I’m unsure how widespread it really is...it could be common, but as a native English speaker I’ve never heard of it. Though that means little since I’m only one person among millions. Nigger is the common term for a black person in Russia? Wow. Here “Nigger” is an emotionally charged word. To be white and call a black person a nigger is to rub their face in all the discrimination and segregation they have faced over the past centuries. It is a very racist statement. That is the reason why we use African-American, it is a far more neutral term...It is politically correct lol. I know as a Russian you laugh at our political correctness, and frankly so do I at times (though I suspect that this is because I’m part of the majority) but I will correct it anyways because should you ever choose to use your knowledge of English to advance yourself knowing how to be politically correct is important, whether you chose to be or not...well that’s something else entirely. I’m still unfamiliar with Russian forms and why a language would even have forms, but soon I’ll have plenty of questions for you....working 70 hrs a week makes finding time for those questions...difficult. In Russian the loanword "нюанс" (is) (used) often and I was assured that "nuance" (is) used often too. (Western "Politically correct")*1) is one of (the) things that causes (laughter in Russia) or ("vomiting")*2 :) () () Most (“people of us”)*3 think that calling (a) black man/woman as (an) "Afro-American" is (foolish) () () because they are () black and for us calling (them) "black" (or "negro") is only the statement of fact without any bad shade (we use the word "негр" -- this is the loneword, of course). () If somebody hates () coloured (people), (they) will hate (them) (independently of a word using for calling they.) *4) In Russian many words that (name) occupations, positions etc. have only the male forms. For example: "врач" or "доктор" (doctor), "президент" (president), "директор" (school head or factory manager) etc. In common parlance it () often use female forms: "врачиха", "докторша", "директриса" etc., but the Russian literary language hasn't these forms. *1 – “Western political correctness”, “The western concept of political correctness” *2- I understand ‘causes vomiting’, though try sickening. i.e. we find this sickening, this is sickening etc etc. *3- “people of us”-your people...Russians *4 – try –If somebody hates coloured people, they will hate them (no matter what you call coloured people.) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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