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Japanese Grammar question.. usage of de? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Alptraum Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5504 days ago 19 posts - 19 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French, Mandarin, Japanese, Greek | Message 1 of 14 23 September 2010 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hi,
I'm attempting to dissect a song I found (Nantokanare by Furuido) in order to try and get some grammar down my throat, I came across a line which is: やせがまんばかりで As far as I've gotten, I've got: やせがまん - false stoicism ばかり- nothing but however, the usage of で eludes me... I can't find it in any of my grammar books, however a translation of this seems to mean 'nothing but false stoicism'. I can obviously get that from the two words I have, but I have no idea what role で plays in this sentence. Thanks. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 2 of 14 23 September 2010 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's basically the -te form of da/desu.
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| Alptraum Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5504 days ago 19 posts - 19 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French, Mandarin, Japanese, Greek | Message 3 of 14 24 September 2010 at 12:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Hold on... again, I'm not at all good with grammar. I understand the -te form to be the gerund... but I have no idea how that is possible. Could somebody please translate literally, word for word in this context? I think that would help the most, my grammar books are being vague on any situation where this would work..
Help is much appreciated. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 4 of 14 24 September 2010 at 12:34am | IP Logged | ||
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The -te form is also used to join clauses together and in this usage, it means 'and'. So in your context, it's
roughly 'is, and'. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Alptraum Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5504 days ago 19 posts - 19 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French, Mandarin, Japanese, Greek | Message 5 of 14 24 September 2010 at 12:39am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks very much for your help.
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| galindo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5208 days ago 142 posts - 248 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Portuguese | Message 6 of 14 24 September 2010 at 12:58am | IP Logged | ||
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(Did you hear this from Akagi? :D)
This was a particle that took me a while to get the hang of, because Spanish 'de' is much more deeply imprinted in my mind. It has nothing to do with the -te form, and it definitely doesn't mean 'and,' especially since that would make the next line make no sense. It's a particle and conjunction that has several meanings, but you'll hear it so often you should get used to it soon. The most common use seems to be 'in,' for example 頭の中で in the fourth line of that same song. (When で means 'in' it's usually used along with 内 or 中.) You can also hear it used to indicate means of action, in phrases like この手で, meaning an action will be done 'by this hand' or 'with this hand.' Other meanings are 'at' and indicating the cause of an effect or time of action. If it's used alone at the beginning of a line, it's similar to 'so' or 'and then.' I found some translated lyrics, but they sound kind of stilted. やせがまんばかりで もう半年過ぎたが Nothing but false stoicism, Half a year passed by already. It really should be something more like "With nothing but false stoicism, half a year has already passed by." It doesn't literally mean "with," but that's the most concise way to express that phrase in English; で is being used to indicate a means of action, and he has been acting with fake stoicism. Considering what the song is talking about, the other meaning of やせがまん might make more sense: "pretended endurance." If you want to be less literal, you could use "I've already spent half a year just pretending to endure" or "I've already spent half a year doing nothing but faking stoicism." Most song translations you can find online are far, far too literal, because directly translating a song line by line doesn't usually work. I don't think dissecting songs is going to help you with grammar if you're just starting out, because they can use unconventional sentence fragments, hanging particles and other things that make them less grammatically clear. (Like もう半年過ぎたが; it would normally be もう半年が過ぎた.) Some songs would work fine for this kind of thing, but many won't. (By the way, で should be covered pretty thoroughly in any grammar book. If it isn't in yours, you need a better one.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5382 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 7 of 14 24 September 2010 at 1:32am | IP Logged | ||
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It also took me a while to figure it out. I used to think it was a particle, but as that explanation didn't make
sense half the time, I kept thinking. I eventually realized it was the te form. If you replace that de with another verb, you'll need the te form. If you look here (http://eow.alc.co.jp/ばかり/UTF-8/), you will find plenty of examples of bakari + some form of desu (da, datta, de, na, desu, deshita). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| galindo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5208 days ago 142 posts - 248 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Portuguese | Message 8 of 14 24 September 2010 at 2:00am | IP Logged | ||
Yes, I also see it used like that (bakari+desu form) all the time. But here, it doesn't seem to make sense that way... In this particular song I don't think a form of desu would fit properly, because of the situation being described and the way it's linked to the second line. The first line is not supposed to be a sentence by itself. Your explanation that it links two clauses as 'is, and' just doesn't seem to work for this song. If I make it やせがまんばかりでした or やせがまんばかりです it removes the link to the fact that this is meant to have been a continuous state over the past half year. It's not: I've been falsely stoic. Half a year has already passed. It's : For the past half year, I've been acting with false stoicism. It changes the meaning if de is not a particle in this case. I think the problem is that you only saw the first line, not the whole sentence. I could be wrong, but this is just what makes more sense to me. Or it could be because I first heard this song quite a while ago, and that's the way it stuck in my head. Either way, I probably would have answered the same as you if I didn't know what the second line was. Also, I don't think I've ever seen desu or deshita shortened to de in a song. Da, sure, but not de. I searched that site you linked for ばかりで and none of the results on the pages I looked through showed it being used as a shortened form of bakari desu. On the other hand, in songs de is used quite often in a way that means 'with.' Based on those patterns I think I'll stick with my original explanation. Edited by galindo on 24 September 2010 at 3:47am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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