Old and Middle English (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Old and Middle English
Tags: Dead Languages \| English
Share with: Delicious Digg reddit Facebook StumbleUpon
Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages

12 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6708 days ago
9078 posts - 16473 votes

Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

Message 9 of 12

28 September 2010 at 12:32pm | IP Logged

I became curious about that guy Layamon and looked him up on Wikiquote

The very first sentence from 'Brut' I saw was this one, and it is packed with Anglosaxon words which luckily for me has some ressemblance with words in Old Norse and even Modern Danish:

Betere is liste þene ufel strenðe.
for mid liste me mai ihalden þat strengðe ne mai iwalden.

Better is art, than evil strength;
for with art men may hold what strength may not obtain.

"liste" for art: art in Icelandic is 'list'('listasafn' = art museum). But I have a suspicion that 'art' here isn't something you hang on your wall, but rather something like Danisk "list", which means 'ruse, trick'

"þene" resembles 'denne' in Danish ('this one') *

"mid" resembles 'med' in Danish ('with')

"iwalden" means to get or obtain, but also "To have or hold (property, goods, an inheritance) in one's possession, own, possess; also, hold (an estate, etc" (Middle English dictionary, p. 47). In this last meaning it is related to "forvalte" in Danish and even "Gewalt" (violence) in German ... so iwalden is "to get into your power"

And that's only the beginning ...

* Here I became too enthousiastic - "þene" means 'than', which may or may not be related to 'dan' in Dutch

Edited by Iversen on 29 September 2010 at 9:54pm
5 persons have voted this message useful

maydayayday
Pentaglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5224 days ago
564 posts - 839 votes

Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish^B2, French^B2
Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), Russian, Swedish, Turkish, Polish, Persian, Vietnamese
Studies: Urdu

Message 10 of 12

28 September 2010 at 1:30pm | IP Logged

Iversen wrote:

I became curious about that guy Layamon and looked him up on Wikiquote

The very first sentence from 'Brut' I saw was this one, and it is packed with Anglosaxon words which luckily for me has some ressemblance with words in Old Norse and even Modern Danish:

Betere is liste þene ufel strenðe.
for mid liste me mai ihalden þat strengðe ne mai iwalden.

Better is art, than evil strength;
for with art men may hold what strength may not obtain.

"liste" for art: art in Icelandic is 'list'('listasafn' = art museum). But I have a suspicion that 'art' here isn't something you hang on your wall, but rather something like Danisk "list", which means 'ruse, trick'

"þene" resembles 'denne' in Danish ('this one')

"mid" resembles 'med' in Danish ('with')

"iwalden" means to get or obtain, but also "To have or hold (property, goods, an inheritance) in one's possession, own, possess; also, hold (an estate, etc" (Middle English dictionary, p. 47). In this last meaning it is related to "forvalte" in Danish and even "Gewalt" (violence) in German ... so iwalden is "to get into your power"

And that's only the beginning ...

This is one of the reasons that I have a leaning towards Old Norse/Icelandic.... It might be a ginnel I never go down but . . . I'll play with Swedish in the minors but probably won't consider going Pro until next year after our long weekend in Stockholm.

I am just a language 'slapper'

[slapper = lady of easy virtue: UK English vernacular speech: lower registers]

[ginnel = dialect for narrow alleyway but I believe it comes from Norse]
1 person has voted this message useful

Merv
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5278 days ago
414 posts - 749 votes

Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian*
Studies: Spanish, French

Message 11 of 12

28 September 2010 at 3:02pm | IP Logged

Iversen wrote:

I became curious about that guy Layamon and looked him up on
Wikiquote

The very first sentence from 'Brut' I saw was this one, and it is packed with Anglosaxon words which luckily for
me has some ressemblance with words in Old Norse and even Modern Danish:

Betere is liste þene ufel strenðe.
for mid liste me mai ihalden þat strengðe ne mai iwalden.

Better is art, than evil strength;
for with art men may hold what strength may not obtain.

"liste" for art: art in Icelandic is 'list'('listasafn' = art museum). But I have a suspicion that 'art' here isn't
something you hang on your wall, but rather something like Danisk "list", which means 'ruse, trick'

"þene" resembles 'denne' in Danish ('this one')

"mid" resembles 'med' in Danish ('with')

"iwalden" means to get or obtain, but also "To have or hold (property, goods, an inheritance) in one's possession,
own, possess; also, hold (an estate, etc" (Middle English ehrhyiQoC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=%22iwalden%">dictionary, p. 47). In this last meaning it is related to
"forvalte" in Danish and even "Gewalt" (violence) in German ... so iwalden is "to get into your power"

And that's only the beginning ...

Thanks for your unique input! Well, you do bring an entire machinery of Germanic with you, so that would
explain how you can read it. I really wanted to read this work in the original, but it was just too distant. What
would be good is an interlinear edition of the work, which would help me pick up the new terms as I go along.

For instance, the Pearl poet works were on facing pages of Middle vs. Modern English. By the time I had gone
through the Pearl, Patience, Cleanness, and St. Erkenwald, I was ready to tackle Sir Gawaine with little help from
the Modern English, and it was much more enjoyable for the effort.
1 person has voted this message useful

aldous
Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 5247 days ago
73 posts - 174 votes

Speaks: English*, French

Message 12 of 12

29 September 2010 at 8:49pm | IP Logged

tracker465 wrote:

-The later(?) Middle English works, such as Chaucer, are very accessible for people that can read modern English, and the level of comprehension becomes even easier if one also speaks another Germanic tongue, such as Dutch or German, since so many of the archaic words have cognates in these languages. I must say, however, that the older works will still be terribly difficult for someone to understand, if he or she does not understand Old English. An example would be Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, in the original.

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight actually dates from around the same time as the Canterbury Tales. It's much more distant from Modern English because it comes from a different dialect area.

tracker465 wrote:

-At one point I wanted to actually learn the grammar of Middle English, but from what I have read, it seems as if Middle English lacks conformity. I am not sure if this is the absolute truth,

Yes, it is. If you want to learn "Middle English", you have to decide which Middle English you're going to learn, because it varied geographically as well as temporally. (The same is true of course of Old English.) English started becoming standardized in the 1400s in what's called Chancery English, the language of the bureaucrats at court. It was a mixture of different dialects but I think the biggest influences came from London and the Midlands. That's the form of English that the modern standard derives from. Since Chaucer ran in courtly circles, and was a Londoner, it makes sense that his language is more comprehensible to us today than are some other examples of Middle English literature.

4 persons have voted this message useful

This discussion contains 12 messages over 2 pages: << Prev 1 2

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login. If you are not already registered you must first register

Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum

This page was generated in 0.2969 seconds.