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Renaming the cities of other countries... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4715 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 153 of 192 25 September 2012 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | ||
Because this is what you do in English. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4647 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 154 of 192 25 September 2012 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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If I may come into what now seems to be a dialogue: As regards the Milošević example, I think it is easy to explain from phonological rules in English. You wil normally not find the unvoiced sound "sh" between vowels in English, so it is an unatural sound combination in the English language. However, the "ch" sound at the end is a regular feature in English.
By the way, in Norwegian we pronounce Milošević as they do in English, although we do have the "sh" sound, also between vowels. People who pronounce the name the "right" way may, rightly or wrongly, be considered pedantic. Returning the the discussion on the Irish name: If I, and probably 99 percent of my fellow Norwegians, see a word in Irish, we have no clue as to how it is pronounced. I only know that in Irish, letters do not correspond to sounds the way they do in e.g. Spanish or Croatian, but I have never studied Irish. So yes, if forced to pronounce e.g. an Irish place name, I would probably pronounce what I see written, knowing that it is not the right Irish pronunciation. Edited by Ogrim on 25 September 2012 at 6:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Veel Tetraglot Newbie Norway Joined 4701 days ago 23 posts - 41 votes Speaks: Lithuanian*, Latvian, English, NorwegianC1 Studies: Greek, Estonian | Message 155 of 192 25 September 2012 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Oh, guys, don't break into a ferocious argument over self-righteousness! There's no absolute truth in this world, as far as I know. :)
Even though it's all about renaming cities and countries, why don't we discuss renaming people, too, as this aspect has already been mentioned here and is no less worth being talked about? How do you tackle any tricky pronunciation of foreign names? Let's say, here comes a Chinese guy named He and a girl named Xi and introduce themselves. What you hear approximately sounds like "I'm her" and "I'm she". And "She" is sitting right next to "Her". Oddly enough, I'm not making this up. That's life! What about Jiangang and Hongjung and Xiaochuan then, not to mention the rest of the exotic names from all over the world? How am I supposed to remember them all, especially when I try my best to pronounce their names, but they just keep on shaking their heads giggling - it's not even close to it! And here they suggest a way out - please call me Candy, Coco, Eric... Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more - when in Rome, do as the Romans do! So isn't it better to have a Roman name, when in Rome? How do you, guys, go about your names in foreign tongues and those foreign names that sound like tongue twisters to you? P.s. Lithuanian "Džordžas Bušas" is not much stranger than Greek "Τζωρτζ Μπους (sounds like "boys")" or Korean "조지 부시"... Naming and renaming is the funny side of life! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5064 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 156 of 192 25 September 2012 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | ||
there are words like bushes, harsher in English. It doesn't matter what the correct irish pronunciation is. But what is the correct English, Norwegian and so on? And for English there is no such thing like "to read as it is written". I suspect even Norwegian won't tell how to pronounce this Irish name as it is written. Edited by Марк on 25 September 2012 at 6:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4852 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 157 of 192 25 September 2012 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, actually English reacted to Gaelic names exactly the same way as Марк postulates it. That's where names like 'Inverness' (from 'Inbhir Nis') or Mac Donald (from 'Mac Domhnaill') come from.
About my examples of European capitals: Germans pronounce the names simply as if they were German words. The only thing that's observed is stress, everything else is pure German. Next examples: Barcelona [ba:tsə'lo:na] and Mallorca [ma'lɔɐ̯ka] (though better educated people say [ma'jɔɐ̯ka]). This has absolutely nothing to do with the original pronounciation. The words are pronounced as if they were German. EDIT: Milošević is pronounced with an 's' and not a 'sch' in German as well. Pronouncing the 'sch' is regarded as being hypercorrect. Most newspapers don't print foreign diacritics (except for the FAZ), because they're not included into their fonts and most people don't know how to pronounce them anyway, so everybody thinks it's a normal s in the middle. You should hear Lech Wałęsa being pronounced in German... Every Pole would either lash out or laugh hard! Edited by Josquin on 25 September 2012 at 6:56pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5064 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 158 of 192 25 September 2012 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, the names of capitals are well-known words, but what to do with unknown? And how do
those who invent how to read them do that in English? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4852 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 159 of 192 25 September 2012 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, it's not like there are no basic rules for pronunciation in English at all ('oo' = [u:], 'ee' = [i:], etc.).
It's the many exceptions to basic rules which make English hard. By the way, you have not answered my question why 'Washington' is Вашингтон in Russian and not *Вошингтен. Edited by Josquin on 25 September 2012 at 7:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5064 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 160 of 192 25 September 2012 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | ||
Your variant is not better. It could be Вощинтон with the stress on the first syllable. I don't know the answer, but the word is both old and frequent. The rules of English-russian transcription are conventional and inconsistent. But it is still trancription. Existing pronunciation rules of English do not fit foreign words obviously. Why is Russian и transliterated as "i", not ee? 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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