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tmp011007
Diglot
Senior Member
Congo
Joined 6068 days ago
199 posts - 346 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*, English
Studies: French, Portuguese
| Message 25 of 200 07 April 2011 at 5:57pm | IP Logged |
Abazid wrote:
This thread will be basically my journal related to my own experimentation with this
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I don't know why but I'm still waiting for it
1 person has voted this message useful
| hrhenry
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
languagehopper.blogs
Joined 5129 days ago
1871 posts - 3642 votes
Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese
Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe
| Message 26 of 200 07 April 2011 at 6:01pm | IP Logged |
tmp011007 wrote:
not in this case??? ok, I'm going to remove that..
"You don't want to do the hard work needed to learn a language..."
nah, it doesn't make me feel better.. somehow that reminds me of class study vs self-study instead of class study and self-study.. I'm gonna remove "hard work" too (hard-work versus productivity/hard-work and productivity.. ???) |
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Learning a language *is* hard work, especially when it comes to speaking. And it takes practice - a lot of it. You don't just wake up one day speaking.
That said, that doesn't mean you can't also have fun. Hard work and fun aren't mutually exclusive.
R.
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1 person has voted this message useful
| Abazid
Diglot
Newbie
Egypt
Joined 5016 days ago
16 posts - 23 votes
Speaks: Arabic (Egyptian)*, English
Studies: Russian
| Message 27 of 200 07 April 2011 at 7:38pm | IP Logged |
I'll now expand on what I'm going to experiment with and some background on the techniques .
In any experiment the factor of the observer expectations & beliefs completely influences the results of the experiment which is the basic principle of Quantum Physics uncovered by the double slit experiment :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
Hence I should clear my own +ve/-ve beliefs & expectations completely to avoid influencing the result .
Here's what I believe happens when one is using a language , A thought , emotion , feeling &/or sensory impulse arises in the form of energy that needs a form of expression in response to internal needs/experiences and various external situations ,In babies they just make certain sounds and use body language ,While in Adults, Instantly a learned linguistic construct of a specifically taught language is accessed where this energy is translated into a stream of specific vocal wave expressions that could be understood by the other person .
In comparison , It seems to me that a child is capable of learning a language WAY faster than an adult because he is not building his new language based on a previous language construct , But completely based on trying to interpret all of his experiences basically all the time in complete immersion based on a completely new construct .
I haven't really tried any teaching methods yet whether it's Michel Thomas , Pimsleur or Rosetta stone , I've only learned English through the normal process in school and constant learning through movies & books through the years which developed my vocabulary quite nicely , The only time I've tried accelerated learning methods in sth close to a foreign language was with complex latin while studying Biological classification & chemistry , Mental photography seemed to make a one time reading along with simple mind-mapping & mnemonics to make memorization & retention possible .
Mainly , I've never tried most of these techniques before , I've only read about how they were discovered and the science behind them , The only one I'm experienced with and have used countless times is the Subliminal photography tech. or Photoreading , Which is basically based on NLP modeling of the man who broke the Guinness world record in reading speeds & comprehension , And it worked for me many times on various occasions .
The other techniques which are Borrowed Genius & Quantum Jumping , Are based on the research of a Russian psychiatrist & hypnotist called Dr.Vlaidimir L. Raikov , Here's an excerpt from the USA Department of Defence Intelligence D.I.A "Controlled Offensive Behaviour" report issued to the public by the US Government :
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P.53
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6429534/Controlled-Offensive-Behav ior
Artificial Reincarnation Through Hypnosis
Vladimir L. Raikov, M.D. , a Soviet psychiartrist, has claimed that hypnotic phenomenon can be utilized for what he claims to be artificial reincarnations. for example raikov claims that it's possible to hypnotically suggest to a girl who studies violin that she is the virtuoso violinist Fritz Kreilser. It is interesting to note , says Raikov , that her manner of playing at this time is reminisescent to that of Kreisler . If so desired, it is also possible to create this capacity in an awake state.
Raikov has converted persons who have no desire to paint, invent complex machines , or to play music into master through hypnosis.
Raikov reports that he is able to evoke this mental alteration only when the subject is in an exceedingly deep trance which is a new form of active trance. Existence in a state of hypnosis and simultaneous perception of individual moments of reality is usually charactersitic of light, superficial hypnosis, however, as mentioned above , Raikov claims that he uses deep hypnosis.
As opposed to normal hypnosis, the new found talents of Raikov's subjects reatin in part of their conscious equipment the ability gained by this technique . Raikov explains, "The student is thinking forming relationships and judgements , acquiring his own experinec during reincarnation. Consequently the creative potential he develops, Draws out , Becomes his own :
2- Raikov has used the EEG to prove his supposition that the trance of reincarnation is a new phenomenon . The usual passive trance of deep hynosis shows via the EEG alpha rest ryhth, In reincarnation the alpha disappears completley and the EEG shows a parttern like that normally recoreded in high wakefulness , Reincarnation appears to be the antithesis of sleep .
Apparently there is even more activity in the mind during reincarnation than there is when a person is wide awake. This corroborates the EEG findings that reincarnation is a state of "Super Wakefulness" and that it is a very different animal from regular , Passive hypnosis , According to Raikov . |
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Here's more :
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Dr Vladimir Raikov did research into accelerated learning and creativity during the late 70’s. He took beginner art students, you know, the ones who can only draw smiley faces , and put them into a deep hypnotic trance. He then suggested to their inner (subconscious) minds that they were Master artists – you know…like Leonardo da Vinci, Rembrandt van Rign or Raphael.
The results were so astounding in fact, that the participants in the study refused to believe that they could have painted these paintings that he showed them (which were at the level of a good graphic artists). Could they really have painted like the old Masters? Well the proof was right there in front of them.
What was even more shocking to them was that they brought back with them some of the skills of that great artist, and that skill transferred itself into their personal artistic abilities. Suddenly they went from painting smiley faces to being really good artists!
What’s more, he not only did this with art, but was also able to replicate the same results in other fields such as healing, where students were given the name and personalities of great healers. Once again his results were outstanding! |
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Scientists in the former Soviet Union, known as Parapsychologists, developed techniques way ahead of anything that the U.S scientist had in this area. And the soviet scientists did it with soviet government grants. One of these techniques was known as "Artificial" Reincarnation.
As documented in the book titled "Psychic discoveries behind the Iron Curtain" by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder, the man mainly responsible for this technique was Dr. Vladimir L. Rainkov, psychiatrist and master hypnotist. You may also read about it in a book titled "The Einstein Factor" by Win Winger and Richard Poe, Ch. 8, pg 160-182.
Dr. Rainkov stated the following: "I am able to evoke this phenomenon of reincarnation only when the subject is in exceedingly deep trance".
In "Trance-formations", Richard Bandler and John Grinder in their book pg. 185-189, talk about Deep-Trance Identification, "a state of consciousness in which the subject assumes the identity of someone else.... one of the hardest hypnotic phenomena of all". Therefore, the subject MUST be put in an extremely deep trance in order to be able to implant these new past into the subject's mind without crashing against his previous belief system, which includes his current identity.
After selecting the genius most appropriate to the area in which the subject wants to excel, he/she would read and learn as much as possible about this genius. Then, Dr. Rainkov would hypnotize him/her, not only once but many, many times during a period of weeks, using many "reincarnation" sessions.
While in a VERY deep trance state, he would give him/her instructions to the effect that he/she is that genius, that he/she thinks, sees, acts, produces like and has all the talents and abilities of that genius. After a few of these sessions the subject started to incorporate to his/her own personality, and in varying degrees, those talents and abilities that supposedly belonged to that particular genius. There was no substitution of personality.
Even though when under hypnosis the subject thought that he/she was that genius, he/she did not forget who he/she was when returned to full awakening consciousness. But his/her new talents and abilities started to explode.
Notice that the subject must FIRST learn everything possible about the personality he/she wants to reincarnate, so that his/her Subconscious mind stores enough information on how that personality used to think, see and act.
It would be totally useless to put you in the deepest possible trance state and tell you that you think, see and act like Einstein and that you are Einstein. And then I bring you out of trance only to find out that you do not have the slightest idea who this Einstein person was and you never heard of him in your entire life. And how can your Subconscious mind make you think, see and act like somebody IT has no previous history about?
In Win Wenger's "The Einstein Factor", he presents a couple of methods that do not go through a FORMAL hypnotic induction. Winger's method is a more sophisticated version of the one used by Napoleon Hill.
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/1237208
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Dr.Win Wenger which is professor and pioneer in the field of creativity & learning then developed a more sophisticated technique without the need of DEEP hypnosis that created similar results :
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Or in the same sense that in our very first 1977 experiment which launched Project Renaissance, a secretary starting to take violin lessons leaped from raw beginner to advanced student in two lessons by our special way of "putting on the head" of great violinists. She came by to visit our second experiment three weeks later and gave us a very nice concert. (ALL of us were getting similar results in our chosen areas even before we perfected this method!)
http://www.winwenger.com/archives/part9.htm
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More :
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Borrowed genius:
Soviet psychiatrist Dr. Vladimir Raikov developed a method called artificial reincarnation in which he used deep hypnosis to make people think that they had virtually become some great genius in history. The reincarnated subjects could, under hypnosis, produce creations that were far superior to that which they had produced prior to their reincarnation. Even after the sessions, the residual effects left a positive impact in their talents. The borrowed genius technique of Wenger & Poe does not involve hypnosis, but relies on the Raikov effect to improve creativity. The subject puts on a genius in imagination, and then debriefing back to self. This leaves a positive measurable impact on his creative talents. The success of this method is the product of the infinite capacity of the human mind for dissociation – splitting of into discreet personalities within the same brain. Geniuses have long used this technique of symbolically borrowing other people’s identities as a tool for sparking creativity. Disney became Mickey & General George S Patton considered himself the reincarnation of great generals of the past.
http://www.chillibreeze.com/bookreviews/TheEinsteinFactorRev iew.asp
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http://www.winwenger.com/borrow1.htm
Basically the method by which Einstein discovered the relativity theory was through a deep though experiment similar to this one (Now teachable called Image streaming) in which he imagined himself to be a light ray and going with it , Tesla also made all of his own inventions using his own imagination to go through journeys inside his mind.
How such information could be possible to collect specifically , The holographic universe hypothesis in Physics & Biology by Bohm & Pribram respectively seems to explain many of these mysterious phenomenon ,Here's the basics for those interested in understanding the physics background behind it "The Secret Beyond Matter" :
http://www.harunyahya.tv/videoDetail/Lang/4/Product/1271/THE _SECRET_BEYOND_MATTER
Then here's a lecture about the Holographic universe which is v.interesting :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHe5C_Gzgvk
To expand on its applications in Quantum physics , This doc. "What the bleep do we know" does it best :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT50SV3W5K0&feature=player_em bedded
Scientifically speaking the explanations above are very plausible , And the techniques mentioned above are also used in a more technical & complex manner in Advanced NLP to model people , Anybody's whose seen Anthony Robbins make people walk on hot coal is completely based on a modeling(Uncovering the internal patterns that constitute certain abilities to create the same results) , This technique is more advanced , If it could be used to learn these highly complex skills up there , I'm sure it could be of help in one way or another in learning a foreign language , But I'm sure many will remain skeptical , Which is fine by me , I am also skeptical coz it seems to good to be true , But I'm willing to see how it goes as it's plausible .
Direct learning is the use of mental photography/eidetic memory to photograph a great number of books with a certain intention & purpose towards learning a single skill/language..etc , In normal photoreading you have to activate the information by conscious reading/learning , In this case you activate it through doing , This helped me develop drawing & painting skills without any reading , I'm sure it could be of help as well during the 61 hour .
For those interested in how it works , Watch this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVy0jk4fBY8
Finally , The 61 hour immersion method , It seems very interesting , I'm currently still researching whats the best courses that fit within the 61 hour time frame ,Here's what I'm currently downloading :
Michel Thomas Russian Foundation, Advanced & Vocabulary .
Pimlseur Russian I,II,& III .
Rosetta Stone Russian 3 levels .
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That alone is unworkable with the materials you've chosen.
If you've ever gone through even a "Complete" Pimsleur course, you would know you need 15 hours for a single listen. And you get a vocabulary of about 250 words, if that. Add another 12 hours for a single listen of Michel Thomas, which likely has overlap of vocabulary, but let's be generous and say you'll get another 100 words out of that.
That gives you maybe 350 words in 27 hours (listening once to each course). Doesn't sound very efficient. And I can guarantee you that with just a single listen to these courses, you will not retain everything long-term that's in them.
R.
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If I'm not mistaken the Michel Thomas vocabulary cd contains more than 1000 new words that build up on the previous ones , And Rosetta stone as well , Do you have any more effective course in mind that I could use along , After all I intended to have continuous new material bombarding me in the 61 hours , Or maybe I could use both of the courses twice .
P.S the degree of retention differs from one person to the next depending on one's memory & understanding capabilities , So It's a factor that's variable rather than fixed .
I can't predict what would happen or what would be the effect of this on my brain , Because in my life I've never studied ANYTHING for 61 hours straight , I dunno if it will work or not , But currently I'm still downloading all the material & books that I'm gonna listen to , And they're a lot ! .
Edited by Abazid on 07 April 2011 at 7:45pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| hrhenry
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
languagehopper.blogs
Joined 5129 days ago
1871 posts - 3642 votes
Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese
Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe
| Message 28 of 200 07 April 2011 at 7:54pm | IP Logged |
Abazid wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the Michel Thomas vocabulary cd contains more than 1000 new words that build up on the previous ones , And Rosetta stone as well , Do you have any more effective course in mind that I could use along , After all I intended to have continuous new material bombarding me in the 61 hours , Or maybe I could use both of the courses twice .
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Can't speak for Rosetta Stone, but Michel Thomas get nowhere near 1000 words with its Foundation and Advanced courses combined. Don't know about a separate vocabulary course (I believe one is available for Russian).
But leave vocabulary numbers aside for a moment. Have you gone through any Pimsleur or MT course at all? Neither one are rapid-fire learning. They need to be done in sequence and you need to be relaxed.
If your plan is to just go through the MT vocabulary course, I'm afraid you'll be fumbling your way through it.
R.
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1 person has voted this message useful
| Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 5380 days ago
3971 posts - 7747 votes
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian
| Message 29 of 200 07 April 2011 at 8:12pm | IP Logged |
hrhenry wrote:
Abazid wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the Michel Thomas vocabulary cd contains more than 1000 new words that build up on the previous ones , And Rosetta stone as well , Do you have any more effective course in mind that I could use along , After all I intended to have continuous new material bombarding me in the 61 hours , Or maybe I could use both of the courses twice .
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Can't speak for Rosetta Stone, but Michel Thomas get nowhere near 1000 words with its Foundation and Advanced courses combined. Don't know about a separate vocabulary course (I believe one is available for Russian).
But leave vocabulary numbers aside for a moment. Have you gone through any Pimsleur or MT course at all? Neither one are rapid-fire learning. They need to be done in sequence and you need to be relaxed.
If your plan is to just go through the MT vocabulary course, I'm afraid you'll be fumbling your way through it.
R.
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Why not speed up the recording?
1 person has voted this message useful
| AndrewW
Newbie
United States
Joined 5006 days ago
29 posts - 60 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish
| Message 30 of 200 07 April 2011 at 8:13pm | IP Logged |
Abazid wrote:
Here's what I believe happens when one is using a language , A thought , emotion , feeling &/or sensory impulse
arises in the form of energy that needs a form of expression in response to internal needs/experiences and
various external situations ,In babies they just make certain sounds and use body language ,While in Adults,
Instantly a learned linguistic construct of a specifically taught language is accessed where this energy is
translated into a stream of specific vocal wave expressions that could be understood by the other person .
In comparison , It seems to me that a child is capable of learning a language WAY faster than an adult because he
is not building his new language based on a previous language construct , But completely based on trying to
interpret all of his experiences basically all the time in complete immersion based on a completely new construct
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This is complete rubbish. In what way do children learn a language WAY faster than adults? If it took someone
here the same amount of time it took a child to reach basic fluency, their method would be branded a complete
failure.
I've never understood the glorification of learning like a child. You've spent your entire life accumulating a whole
body of knowledge, and yet some people want to try to lock all of that away and pretend to be a mute illiterate
again.
These pseudoscientific theories will take your language learning nowhere. If they could, you'd be practicing them
instead of defending them here. The reality is that there is a huge evolutionary advantage to learning other
languages, and on a more basic level, a very practical advantage too in business, travel, etc. And yet, over these
however many years and years, no one has come up with a "method" that doesn't involve hard work and
perseverance. It simply doesn't exist.
Edited by AndrewW on 07 April 2011 at 8:18pm
2 persons have voted this message useful
| Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
Joined 5380 days ago
3971 posts - 7747 votes
Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto
Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian
| Message 31 of 200 07 April 2011 at 8:16pm | IP Logged |
AndrewW wrote:
Abazid wrote:
In comparison , It seems to me that a child is capable of learning a language WAY faster than an adult because he
is not building his new language based on a previous language construct , But completely based on trying to
interpret all of his experiences basically all the time in complete immersion based on a completely new construct
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This is complete rubbish. In what way do children learn a language WAY faster than adults? If it took someone
here the same amount of time it took a child to reach basic fluency, their method would be branded a complete
failure.
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I was just about to ask -- how long does it take a Russian baby before she can read scientific texts in Russian?
1 person has voted this message useful
| hrhenry
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
languagehopper.blogs
Joined 5129 days ago
1871 posts - 3642 votes
Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese
Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe
| Message 32 of 200 07 April 2011 at 8:19pm | IP Logged |
Arekkusu wrote:
Why not speed up the recording? |
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I think that would be about as helpful as speed-reading a very large document with many, many errors. What'll get engraved on the brain are the errors from the one student with the really bad pronunciation and grammar.
MT doesn't lend itself to that kind of learning, IMO.
R.
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