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Stop speaking to me in English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 33 of 51 31 October 2014 at 9:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Let me add that language etiquette dictates that when I am in the Netherlands, I'm
obliged to speak Dutch back if people ask me to do so :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 34 of 51 31 October 2014 at 10:07am | IP Logged | ||
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Apart from isolated tourist phrases I avoid speaking a target language before I'm reasonably confident that I at least can understand the answers. But once I have decided to do a monolingual voyage I stick to that decision. And because of this strategy I have very few cases where the other person continues to speak English so that we end up with a bilingual discussion (actually only one ticket seller in the Aquarium of Montpellier didn't take the hint).
I can be quite stubborn once I have taken a decision. The biggest problem is speakers of minority languages and dialects. For instance I have been reluctant to turn on my most uncompromising Scots in Scotland because people there typically speak English with a Scottish accent. They might think I made fun of them. And the same thing has blocked me from learning the Danish dialects - people might think I made fun of them. The only solution in this deadlock is to let my own accent in the Standard language glide imperceptibly towards the local variant. From a slightly different angle: I waited a long time speaking Swedish - first because I understood Swedish perfectly and expected the Swedes to understand my Danish with equal ease. Reality killed this illusion. Therefore I decided to learn Swedish, but I chose to study it as a completely new language because I wanted to avoid speaking the typical DanoSwedish hodgepodge. But last time I visited Stockholm (reasonably far away from Denmark) I went for the monolingual solution, and both the Swedes and I survived. At least I have a clear conscience concerning Swedish: I have always refused to speak English in conversations with Swedes - and I shall continue to do so. Either they understand Danish or they will be punished draconically by having to listen to my Swedish. Edited by Iversen on 31 October 2014 at 10:14am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| chiara-sai Triglot Groupie United Kingdom Joined 3707 days ago 54 posts - 146 votes Speaks: Italian*, EnglishC2, French Studies: German, Japanese | Message 35 of 51 31 October 2014 at 10:46am | IP Logged | ||
Ah yes, minority languages are a tricky issue. I have been learning some Lombard on a off (it’s a minority language where I come from, and my mother speaks it) but I am extremely intimidated to speak it because I have found speakers are so not used to people studying it that some will mock you if you make any mistakes and tell you you’ll never learn their language. There’s also this perception that Italian minority languages are just a corruption of Italian (even though they evolved side by side to it!) and that it’s silly to learn a corrupted version when you already speak the correct one, which is an attitude that makes me sad. And I’m not even gonna get into all assumptions people make about your political views as soon as they learn that you’re studying Lombard… As a result I’ve been very put off studying it and I’ve kept it to myself and resigned to never using it as a spoken language. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4638 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 36 of 51 31 October 2014 at 11:23am | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting post about Lombard, chiara-sai. I think the attitude of minorities to people learning their language often depends on the status of the minority language itself, and to what extent the native speakers are proud of it or not. When I was in Surselva in Switzerland 18 months ago, I got only positive reactions when I made a few attempts at speaking Romansh, but of course, it is a national language of Switzerland, with a rich culture and literature, and people are very proud and conscious of their cultural heritage, so any foreigner learning the language is well received.
Her in Alsace where I live, the attitude is quite different. Although I have just learnt a few expressions in Alsatian, I don't really feel motivated to study the language. Firstly, French dominates completely, and all Alsatian-speakers are native French speakers as well. Secondly, there is no written standard as such (although a few books are written in Alsatian) and there are no media in Alsatian. And finally, most people consider Alsatian just to be a variety of German, or even a "corruption" of German, as put by chiara-sai. French language policy has obviously been an important factor in making Alsatian "less valued". You can find evening classes in Alsatian, but they seem to be aimed primarily at "heritage speakers" who want to "get in touch with their linguistic roots". Now to turn to the original question of English: I have only experienced the problem in very touristy places, like e.g. the Canary Islands, where hotel or restaurant staff are so tuned into thinking tourist = English, that they often don't seem able to switch when someone comes along and speaks well in Spanish to them. And my most recent experience in this regard was in Munich, where an obnoxious waiter consistently spoke English to me, although I equally obnoxiously spoke only German to him. However, most of the time in Germany I never experience any problem in this regard, people are always willing to keep the conversation in German, in spite of any grammar mistakes I may commit. And on the German side of the Rhine, people are just as likely to have learnt French as their first foreign language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5765 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 37 of 51 31 October 2014 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ogrim, do you understand Huguette Dreikaus?
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4098 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 38 of 51 31 October 2014 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting to hear about Lombard, indeed.
I have read similar attitudes to native francophones making mistakes (especially with pronunciation) in Breton as well, but I have never encountered them in person or on the many Facebook groups I keep up with. On the other hand, people are endlessly excited about non-francophones learning Breton. As in: when foreign nationals sign up for classes, someone alerts a newspaper, then someone scans the newspaper, and it gets shared and shared and shared all over Facebook.
Sure there is! I am sure it's not much or on a large scale, but I've watched (or turned off, rather) television programmes in Elsässisch on French TV. There's at least that. I'd be surprised if there aren't radio channels that broadcast in Elsässisch and online "television" broadcasts, as is the case with Breton. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 39 of 51 31 October 2014 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | ||
While waiting for an answer from Ogrim, I would like to thank Bao for the reference to a very entertaining lady. Xundheit 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jtmc18 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7244 days ago 119 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 40 of 51 31 October 2014 at 6:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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I went to Italy last year for the purpose of practicing my Italian, which is at an intermediate level. I went to some conventional tourist places, such as Rome and Florence, as well as some unconventional places- such as a friend's house and a university graduation. My experiences with people speaking English to me were quite mixed. Contrary to expectations, very few did so in Rome or Florence- I actually had an incident with the luggage handler at the Florence train station, and the entire conversation took place in Italian. At the university, however, everyone wanted to speak to me in English. I was a novelty for them, and I humored their attempts to speak my language. It seemed that they simply wanted to show off their skills to me, rather than disparage my Italian.
I found that the level of English in Italy is higher than I expected. Certainly not everyone speaks it, but it seems most people have had some exposure to it. At train stations, signs are posted in Italian and English. English language pop music is very common on radio stations. Universities apparently require some level of knowledge of the language for admission. I think it is a partial myth that Italians do not speak English. As I traveled around, I got the impression that native speakers are not the only ones who struggle with "avoiding" English. It seems that Italians are just as likely to use English with Germans, French, Chinese, etc. as they are with me. Granted, there is very little expectation on their part that foreigners speak Italian. They are probably not used to it, and as such probably feel that speaking English is more polite. After all, there are dozens of posts on travel forums from nervous North Americans who ask "Do I have to know Italian to travel in Italy?" Since the majority would prefer not to, the one rare traveler who insists on speaking only Italian is "out of the norm". In other words, the attitude of the eager language learner stands in direct contrast to that of the vast majority of foreigners which Italians encounter. I tried to keep this in mind as Italians attempted to speak English with me. They need my language far more than I need theirs. I think Italian is one of the world's most beautiful languages, but its utility is suspect. I was simply happy with the Italian conversations I did have. Having worked in some high profile national parks in the States, I have met thousands of tourists from all over the world. I have to admit, the ability to practice a language has been a very important factor in my language choices. For instance, I have largely discarded learning German as most German visitors can express themselves in English to some degree (and prefer to). French speakers also seem to have mastered English, with a handful of memorable exceptions. I have discovered, however, that Italian visitors- whatever their English proficiency- never disparage my attempts to speak their language. Folks from elsewhere will often bulk if I say something in their respective languages, as they take as it slight against their English proficiency. Italians rarely do this. This has given me hope that, whatever the status of English in their country, there will always be someone willing to speak "the bella lingua" with me. So I continue... 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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