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Ukrainian or Serbo-Croatian? | ||
Tags: Serbo-Croatian | Ukrainian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5344 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes  Speaks: Spanish* | Message 1 of 9 29 July 2010 at 1:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Please help me decide.
I'm interested in culture, literature, society; I don't anticipate I'll be visiting the countries. I want to choose the language with the most unique personality and perspective. I hear Ukrainians might be comparatively pro-American for instance, having supported Mr Bush when most everyone else in Europe was against him. In what other ways are the speakers of these two languages and their literatures distinctive? I already study Russian so I hope either of the two will be within reasonable reach. Thanks for any opinions! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 2 of 9 29 July 2010 at 3:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Flip a coin.
I've never found any language to have "personality" as it's the speakers who use that language who have personality. I've met colourful folk among Ukrainians, Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins and Serbs. The language that they used was secondary as their actions and thinking made a bigger impression on me. From a religious point of view, Ukraine, Serbia and Montenegro are predominantly Orthodox Christian. Bosnia-Herzegovina is noticeably Islamic while Croatia is predominantly Roman Catholic. When it comes to mindset of the speakers involved, I've found that all of these people are rather proud of their origins (especially if they like to declare themselves explicitly to be "Ukrainian", "Bosniak", "Bosnian", "Croatian", "Montenegrin" or "Serbian", whichever the case may be). A common thread of greater or lesser degree is that the modern incarnations of these nation-states emerged from some "evil oppressor" and thus native speakers of these languages hold rather tightly to a memory of having resisted or conquered something foreign or malevolent (for them). At the same time the political or world-views of Ukrainians or people from the former Yugoslavia shouldn't be that big of a factor in deciding which language you will study. You'll still delve into Cyrillic alphabets, verbs of motion, verbal aspect and cases no matter which of the two languages you choose! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5344 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 3 of 9 29 July 2010 at 3:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I've actually considered doing this.
I think that goes without saying. When one asks which language is this or that one refers to the people that have expressed themselves through it along with their ideas and attitudes, other than perhaps specific questions like "how many cases does this language have".
This is very interesting and something I've considered as well, how does this diversity of religion among the same people with the same language shape their worldview differently. This would be a point for Serbo-Croatian.
Another very good point. It would be refreshing to become acquainted with Europeans who remain proud of who they are, when most of them have left nationalism behind. In the case of the former Yugoslavs, who is the oppressor foremost in their minds? Each other? Is Turkish dominance after so much time still remembered and felt? And in the case of the Ukrainians, does Russian overbearance generate a sense of sympathy and solidarity with the United States as I suspect? They have a pro-Russia leader now of course... What about their intellectuals?
Au contraire. This is the why I study not only either of these two but any language: the worldview of its speakers.
I'm already knee-deep in them coming from Russian, which I also didn't choose because of grammar but because of the genius of its writers. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| johntm93 Senior Member United States Joined 5326 days ago 587 posts - 746 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish | Message 4 of 9 29 July 2010 at 3:42am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Both, if it's an option. I'd imagine there'd be a lot of Ukrainian materials written in Russian (it might be the same for Serbo-Croatian too). Do a lot of Ukrainians know Russian? If so you could learn that and use Russian+Spanish+English materials for Serbo-Croatian, and Ukrainian too.
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 5 of 9 29 July 2010 at 5:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'm not too sure, since I've never given much thought to the influence of religion itself on the languages involved nor to the mindsets of the speakers involved. The most that I could say is that they're all monotheistic religions, and of course any adherent of a religion may look down upon non-believers. The most that I've observed when studying BCMS/Serbo-Croatian is that the language-planning policies and certain parts of the linguistic history were influenced by the religious actions. For example the examples of Glagolitic script as used in a few Croatian churches up until the early 20th century are reminders of a script devised by Christian missionaries during the early Middle Ages. Before the Serbs were educated in Serbo-Croatian, the language used by the powerful Serbian Orthodox Church was Slaveno-Serbian which was a hybrid of northern Serbian vernacular with significant influence from Russian and Old Church Slavonic - itself a liturgical language used by Southern Slavs. In more recent times, part of the drive to create a distinct Bosnian language lies mainly in adopting words of Arabic, Farsi or Turkish origin and this Middle Eastern inspiration appears as a matter of course when incorporating Islamic terminology as used by Bosnians.
I'm not sure if I would find it that refreshing to meet people anywhere who readily and unhesitatingly derive vicarious or national pride in the exploits of someone who happened to belong the same "tribe" in a earlier era. There's a very fine line between nationalism/chauvinism and private devotion to a homeland, and my experience has been rather negative since it's very easy for mild patriotism or a private devotion to homeland to make the transition to parochialism or nationalistic intolerance. Anyway, it is primarily the nationalists and even some patriots who make reference to the dichotomy of their now being "free", "virtuous" in the face of the malevolent oppressor. Of course there are a few people who just don't care and have no time or desire to slag other people or punish the descendants for events beyond their control as performed by their ancestors (cf. it'd be odd for me to continually disparage modern Mongols out of hand for the actions of their ancestors who fought in Jengiz Khan's armies). Based on my experiences, Croatian nationalists view Serbs or Turks negatively. In their minds, the "East" brought disaster to the "civilized and "western" Croats in the form of Ottoman invasions and Serbian dominance. Some Croats today (like a few Hungarians, Poles and Serbs I've met) still like to think of their ancestors being the virtuous defenders of (Western) Christianity or Western civilization. From the few Bosnians I met, I gathered that any oppressor was the party that caused misery for them or their ancestors. Depending on whom I talked to, I was led to think that Croats, Serbs or Turks represented the old oppressors or unforgivable enemy. At the same time Turks were not viewed quite that negatively because the primary distinguishing mark of Bosnians is religious and that was because of the Ottomans. However it was hard for me to determine whether I was dealing with virulent Bosnian nationalism or not. I don't know why... For Serbian nationalists, the historical oppressor was presented to me as the Turks. The Ottomans were Islamic and spoke Ottoman Turkish. The Serbs were Christians and spoke some Slavonic language (Slaveno-Serbian or whatever form of Shtokavian used in the area). In more recent times, the Croats had been viewed by them as oppressors because of the tensions in Krajina/Lika (the border of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina) involving Croatian Serbs and the Croats. I suspect that any Ukrainian's wariness or even dislike for Russians outweighs the pro-American attitude. It seems to me almost like a case of where the enemy of the enemy must be a friend and based on what has already happened. Ukraine and America just haven't interacted to the same degree or in the same way as Ukraine and Russia have. I can't say much about modern Ukrainian intellectuals' views on Russia other than their views probably falling on a broad spectrum with some being more circumspect or reserved than others with regards to Russo-Ukrainian relations.
Somehow I always feel that in cases like this the language becomes secondary since it's the idea that leaves a lasting impression even though there is a certain pleasure in experiencing something in the original language rather than in translation. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5272 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 6 of 9 29 July 2010 at 6:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Russian will help you a lot more with Ukrainian than it will with Serbo-Croatian.
If you are interested in literature, I would say they are roughly the same, maybe a bit stronger in Serbo- Croatian. Selimovic, Andric, Crnjanski, Krleza are notable novelists, and there are some excellent poets as well. There is also a strong body of epic/oral poetry (especially amongst the Serbs) that was codified by Vuk Karadzic and was known to and respected by Grimm, Goethe, and others. I don't know much about Ukrainian literature, other than about Taras Shevchenko. In terms of culture, society, politics, both would be probably pretty similar in terms of representing the gamut of historical narratives and political orientations. With Ukrainians, you would meet hardcore Ukrainian nationalists, as well as pro-Russians, pro-Polish, and pro-American orientations. With Serbs/Croats/Muslims you would meet all sorts of political orientations (both positive and negative) revolving firstly around the US and EU, then Germany/Russia/Turkey but also Hungary/Albania/Italy/Greece/Bulgaria/Saudi Arabia/Iran, etc. And of course strong sentiments regarding the other two ethnic groups in the package. Generally anti-Serb and pro-/anti- Croat sentiments amongst Muslims, anti-Croat and anti-Muslim sentiments amongst Serbs, and anti-Serb and pro-/anti-Muslim sentiments amongst Croats. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Derian Triglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5307 days ago 227 posts - 464 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Czech, French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 7 of 9 29 July 2010 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The Ukraine and Russia have a lot of common history, they are neighbours, around half of the Ukrainians speak fluent Russian and the nations' cultures are very close.
The Ukrainian language is - together with Belarussian - the most similar language to Russian. Now, the Serbo-Croatian language, just as the countries themselves, doesn't belong to the east-Slavic family (like Russia(n) and (the) Ukraine(ian)), but to the south Slavic/Slavs. Serbia and Croatia, which belong to the South Slavic countries, are quite distinct from the Ukraine and Russian, as has already been explained by previous posters. There is this characteristic southern/mediterranean flair about those countries. So learning their language gives you something really unique, whereas learning Ukraininan is just more like an elaboration upon a theme. Edited by Derian on 29 July 2010 at 2:01pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5344 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 8 of 9 29 July 2010 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Chung, thank you very much for your detailed response. I find the diversity of religion, culture and history among a single language community fascinating, so I'm strongly drawn towards SC.
Merv, there are many great SC authors I'd love to read in the original, particularly Borislav Pekić. Its literary tradition is very rich indeed. Derian, very good point about SC being more distinct for someone already familiar with Russian than Ukrainian. What draws me to the latter though is the possibility of it being a pro-American version of Russia. As you can see I'm fascinated by contrasts, and the idea of experiencing the Russian genius turned upside down in this manner is appealing to me. The novels of Yuri Andrujovich though make the commonplace complaint about American culture's debasing influence upon the Ukraine, so perhaps Ukrainian writers are as left-wing as they are everywhere else, making it less distinct and appealing to me. Anyhow, I'll see if I can accommodate both languages as they're both very worthy endeavors. If only one could live to be at least two hundred years old... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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