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Breaking the Int/Advanced Barrier | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Korean | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| jtdotto Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5228 days ago 73 posts - 172 votes  Speaks: English*, Korean Studies: Spanish, Portuguese, German | Message 1 of 11 04 August 2010 at 12:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm new to this forum so forgive me if this is not the most appropriate board to be posting on, but I want to
discuss the best way to break through what I feel is the hardest and most crucial obstacle in attaining the true beginnings of serious proficiency in a foreign language. Ascending to the advanced level of language learning is not something I have ever personally done, but is my current goal, something I hope to attain within the next 6 to 8 months. I feel there is much more variety in the materials available to intermediate/advanced learners, because they can tailor authentic, native media to their needs (tv shows, news programs, novels, etc). But, I also feel that what one individual learner needs to focus on can be drastically different from another, depending on our personal foreign language histories. I've studied Korean for just about 25 months now and am well traveled throughout intermediate territory. Since I first began studying, I have had access to a large Korean population in my native Seattle, and an even higher concentration on my university campus. I've gone abroad twice, once for 10 months and again for 3 weeks. In essence, my study focus has mainly been speaking/listening. I first decided to seriously learn the language because I wanted to communicate, and I can honestly say I've achieved that goal. I can think in Korean and live with it. But it has come time for me to take on some L-R projects that I see so often on this forum. But I'm a bit at a loss for strong, profitable methods. I've read about audiobooks, but Korean does not have a highly developed source of audiobooks. I've collected scores of news reports from scola.org for reading/comprehension and listening practice. I also have some choice novels that most middle-schoolers and high-schoolers read. I have gone through one of these novels very thoroughly, recording every unfamiliar word into a document and then finding the dictionary translation - I can now read that book with nothing more than my handmade vocab aid. I've begun the process for a second book, but I'm starting to realize that this method is arduous and time-consuming. Does anyone have any better methods for cracking the advanced barrier? I also know I need to study Hanja in order to further my knowledge of Korean word formation and vocabulary in general. I know this post is mostly centered around my interaction with the Korean language, but I am eager to hear other people's methods of reaching the advanced level of language learning. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| michaelmichael Senior Member Canada Joined 5256 days ago 167 posts - 202 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 2 of 11 04 August 2010 at 5:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well I haven't gotten there yet, but I figured I will eventually make an anki list of 10000 words. I have the Cambridge using french vocabulary book, which organizes on themes. I think i might buy the barrons vocab due to it having better reviews on amazon.
Beyond that, the most logical way is to read. try to find reputable authors who have unique ways of expressing themselves and try to pick up on their style and usage. There are also books on that just focus on style/usage. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5782 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian | Message 3 of 11 04 August 2010 at 7:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
It does sound arduous and not something I would be willing to do for an entire novel. Since I think reading was the single most important thing I did to gain fluency in Japanese (more so than even living in Japan), I'd like to share my thoughts on and strategy for reading. I lived nearly two years in Japan without a portable dictionary, paper or electronic. I think this was important in learning how to read novels rather than read a dictionary. The first 15 or so novels I read are marked up with pencil with things to look up later, if at all, when I had internet access. I also stuck a small scrap of paper in the front that I could mark notes and page numbers to later ask my teacher. I've reread some of the books I read using this method and have had the joy of erasing most (but not all) of those marks. Even when I did buy a portable dictionary I didn't change my strategy much. My marking system is quite simple. Unknown words get circled, grammar or difficult passages get underlined with an arrow in the margin to find it easily. The latter gets a note and page number on the scrap paper. I don't recommend marking or looking up every unknown word until unknown words only make up about 5-10% of the text. Below is my basic strategy for reading. I use three different reading methods alternatively, though all of them use the marking system above. They are, in order of frequency: 1) Extensive reading. I read quickly and I look up nothing unless I absolutely must. Things are looked up later, if at all. This is an enjoyable way to read a story. 2) Vocabulary-centric reading. In addition to circling them, I note words I do not know along with their page number in a notepad. I look up these words at a later time and gives me lists to study later (though they rarely are). Because I am not stopping for actual dictionary use I can amass large amounts of vocabulary in context in a relatively short period of time. When looking them up afterward, for words that I cannot understand or feel I should be able to use myself, I reread the sentences or paragraphs they were found in. 3) Intensive reading. I read slowly and carefully, looking up words as I go. Though these words rarely get written down this gives me a chance to ponder specific word choices, style, and grammar which I understand but do not use myself. I alternate these methods essentially at whim, though if anything place is the largest determining factor. I am much more inclined to read for vocabulary if I have a solid, flat writing surface and more inclined to read extensively while standing on the train. If I was going to suggest a strategy, I would recommend doing them in order 3->2->1 while reading through the same work. When breaking in a new author or work, the first chapter, or 50 pages, or what have you, get intensive attention. After this you can afford to read less and less intensively as the work progresses. For readers with lower comprehension rates I would limit vocabulary-centric reading to lessen the otherwise tremendous word-list load. I would note only the words that repeat and verbs. If it is necessary to further reduce the words, I would write down only those words that appear 3 or 4 times and in at least two different paragraphs/sections. This is because some words may appear multiple times in a very specific context but be useless (at this stage) in a broader scope. To conclude, I think it's important to note that this is takes a long time. Your first novel might take a month or more. Your fourth or fifth might also. The important thing is that there is a fourth and fifth. Checking things off saying, "Well, I've read a novel in my target language now, so that's reading," isn't a viable strategy. You've read thousands of pages in your native language and though, as an adult, you can make more significant gains in fewer pages read than you did as a child, you're still going to have to hit the thousands of pages in your target language to get where you want to be. I'm studying Korean as well, so if you find any authors you like, let me know!
Whether hanja are actually necessary or not, I find my knowledge of Chinese characters beneficial. Of course, as a speaker of Japanese, theses come at almost no cost to me. You will have to decide for yourself whether the return on investment is worth it. 12 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| jtdotto Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5228 days ago 73 posts - 172 votes Speaks: English*, Korean Studies: Spanish, Portuguese, German | Message 4 of 11 04 August 2010 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thank you ericspinelli, your thorough advice was well received. I actually have experimented just with 1 and 2,
mainly because as I became more interested in the story, I became less patient with knowing every single word, even when there was strong context. These are great strategies and will really help me for this summer and the coming school year, but there still is one thing that irks me a bit. When I wander into extensive reading, I find that I lose the storyline within a matter of pages... this could be because I haven't gotten past 50 pages yet, so the style/storyline isn't quite clear, but would you recommend that if I ever lose the storyline, backtracking and moving into intensive reading would be better? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5782 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian | Message 5 of 11 04 August 2010 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
There may be benefits to just plowing through a book, but if things don't get clearer as characters and events unfold and get fleshed out it's certainly OK to put a book down. One thing I suggest is reading books you already know the story to. Often this is a book you've read in another language that has been translated into your target language, but it could be something that you've seen the movie of or had described to you or is just general knowledge (this last one most likely applies to non-fiction). The first book I read in Japanese was The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. Though I have still never read the original, I had read an abridged children's version and also read other Twain books (most notably Adventures of Huckleberry Finn), plus at least a few of the adventures are general American folklore (e.g., Tom whitewashing the fence). I chose a version aimed at Japanese children; it was still somewhere around 200-250 pages, but perhaps translated into simpler terms (and though this isn't notable for any language except Japanese, with full phonetic readings (furigana) for all kanji). Armed with this knowledge and a handful of pictures throughout the book I was able to make heads-and-tails out of a whole lot of the plot. The next book I read was a translation of Gulliver's Travels. The introduction was a doozie, describing all sorts of nautical things I would probably still stumble over, but the actual meat of the book wasn't so bad. Again, I hadn't read the book before in English but the first adventure is terribly well known and I'm sure I'd seen at least a TV mini-series about it. Though the following adventures were unknown to me I had since gotten used to the author's (and translator's) style, knew a bit about the main character, and had a bit of momentum as I broke into new territory. You might even read an English book now just to read its Korean translation. I believe among others Professor Arguelles, an intermittent member of this board, suggested even going page for page between L1 and L2 copies, then chapter for chapter, then book for book. No matter what book you're reading and how much of the story you already know, here's one last thing I recommend. Try rereading passages, pages, or even whole chapters to make sense of things. For the trickier parts, especially when you are reading intensively, it's OK to go back over them immediately. Look up a word, see how it fits in context, reread the passage and repeat until you've unlocked it. When it comes to reading extensively, however, within reason (say up to 24 to 36 hours), the more time you put between each reading the better. Let things settle overnight and come back to them the next day. Not only do you start with a fresher and more energetic mind, but your subconscious may have put a few pieces together for you. Of course, you may have had a chance to consult a dictionary or grammar in the meantime as well, but hopefully the time lapse allows you to see the target language as it is rather than simply an interpretation of your native language. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6767 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 6 of 11 05 August 2010 at 2:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think reading without comprehension is pointless and frustrating. If you don't know what's going on, highlight the critical vocabulary and sentence patterns that you don't thoroughly understand, study them separately, and then re- read the passage. The number of pages you read per hour doesn't matter. The amount you learn does. Contrary to Eric, I began with Japanese authors so the style and content would be thoroughly Japanese. I sampled a few authors till I found one who could be read at a high-intermediate skill level (Jiro Akagawa), and after about ten of his novels, began moving up to more difficult novelists. I'm still not up to reading Murakami yet. Once nice thing about sticking with a single author for a few books is that you get used his or her favourite sentence patterns, kanji, and vocabulary choices, which lets you read more quickly. Edit: Sorry for using so many Japanese-specific examples. I'm sure this all applies to Korean too, but my Korean is still at a beginner's stage. Edited by Captain Haddock on 05 August 2010 at 2:35am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5782 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian | Message 7 of 11 05 August 2010 at 3:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Though I started with books that had been translated from my native language to my target language, it's equally reasonable to start with books that have been translated the other way so that you are reading authentic material in your target language. And though both examples I gave were translations, it's not necessary to use translations at all. You could, for example, read or listen to a [simplified] summary of the plot before you start reading instead.
I agree and have done this myself.
Hijack: Which Murakami? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6767 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 8 of 11 05 August 2010 at 11:59am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Haruki Murakami, whose IQ84 book 3 seems to dominate the racks at every bookstore these days. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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