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Most English resistant language

  Tags: Purism
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
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irrationale
Tetraglot
Senior Member
China
Joined 6048 days ago
669 posts - 1023 votes 
2 sounds
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Tagalog
Studies: Ancient Greek, Japanese

 
 Message 25 of 42
19 October 2009 at 3:42pm | IP Logged 
Gusutafu wrote:
I think it is quite obvious why he is looking for an English-defying language, loanwards are boring and a lazy way to come up with new words. Also, since loan words originted somewhere else, they don't say that much about the language. Sort of like drinking Coca-cola in Japan. It might taste a tiny bit differently, but it is completely irrelevant if you are interested in Japanese cuisine.
.


I couldn't have said it better. My experience with Chinese was is so interesting because of their resistance to incorperating English words (at least directly). While Tagalog has been a totally different experience. While Tagalog has a very extensive and interesting vocabulary, speakers essentially just use the English word for various things like Coffee, busy, any American food, etc, verbatim, without even changing it, and encourage me to do so. "Taglish" is the real deal, and almost seems to be killing Tagalog. Of course, not all languages are this extreme.

To me, I like learning a language that isn't afraid to be itself. I am also interesting in what factors make a language resistant or not (cultural, linguistic, etc). It is just more enriching for me, I am not trying to start a polemic or anything.

Great comments so far!
1 person has voted this message useful



Captain Haddock
Diglot
Senior Member
Japan
kanjicabinet.tumblr.
Joined 6766 days ago
2282 posts - 2814 votes 
Speaks: English*, Japanese
Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek

 
 Message 26 of 42
19 October 2009 at 4:45pm | IP Logged 
I have Filipino friends who speak Tagalog and Cebuano. When I asked what "hello" is in Cebuano, they told me it
was "como-estas".
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7154 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 27 of 42
19 October 2009 at 5:29pm | IP Logged 
irrationale wrote:
Gusutafu wrote:
I think it is quite obvious why he is looking for an English-defying language, loanwards are boring and a lazy way to come up with new words. Also, since loan words originted somewhere else, they don't say that much about the language. Sort of like drinking Coca-cola in Japan. It might taste a tiny bit differently, but it is completely irrelevant if you are interested in Japanese cuisine.
.


I couldn't have said it better. My experience with Chinese was is so interesting because of their resistance to incorperating English words (at least directly). While Tagalog has been a totally different experience. While Tagalog has a very extensive and interesting vocabulary, speakers essentially just use the English word for various things like Coffee, busy, any American food, etc, verbatim, without even changing it, and encourage me to do so. "Taglish" is the real deal, and almost seems to be killing Tagalog. Of course, not all languages are this extreme.

To me, I like learning a language that isn't afraid to be itself. I am also interesting in what factors make a language resistant or not (cultural, linguistic, etc). It is just more enriching for me, I am not trying to start a polemic or anything.

Great comments so far!


Borrowing is hardly a "boring" or "lazy" way to come up with new words. It's merely another way that vocabularies can enrich themselves in addition to using neologisms or sometimes even creation "ex nihilo". The presence of loanwords can also yield clues in the development in the relevant languages. Thus they can say something about the language, just not in a way that is apparent to laymen.

For example there are many Germanic loanwords in Finnish, but the form of these loanwords in their Finnish forms yield additional clues to linguists about what Old Norse was like (especially with providing clues about sound changes). A similar situation exists with the Old Turkic loanwords in Hungarian. Many of these Old Turkic loanwords give some additional clues to etymologists about the development of the Turkic languages during the Dark Ages - this is especially valuable since whatever records we do have today about the people and languages of Central Asia of that era are rather scanty.

It's quite likely that in the future, the presence of English loanwords in several languages may yield clues about what English was like at the time of the appearance of those loanwords - this could be especially interesting or valuable if the originating word in English had already changed in some way (be it in pronunciation, form or meaning) or even fallen into disuse by native-speakers.
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Gusutafu
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 5519 days ago
655 posts - 1039 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*

 
 Message 28 of 42
19 October 2009 at 7:53pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:

Borrowing is hardly a "boring" or "lazy" way to come up with new words. It's merely another way that vocabularies can enrich themselves in addition to using neologisms or sometimes even creation "ex nihilo". The presence of loanwords can also yield clues in the development in the relevant languages. Thus they can say something about the language, just not in a way that is apparent to laymen.

For example there are many Germanic loanwords in Finnish, but the form of these loanwords in their Finnish forms yield additional clues to linguists about what Old Norse was like (especially with providing clues about sound changes). A similar situation exists with the Old Turkic loanwords in Hungarian. Many of these Old Turkic loanwords give some additional clues to etymologists about the development of the Turkic languages during the Dark Ages - this is especially valuable since whatever records we do have today about the people and languages of Central Asia of that era are rather scanty.

It's quite likely that in the future, the presence of English loanwords in several languages may yield clues about what English was like at the time of the appearance of those loanwords - this could be especially interesting or valuable if the originating word in English had already changed in some way (be it in pronunciation, form or meaning) or even fallen into disuse by native-speakers.


OK, to me it seems sort of lazy to phonetically transcribe the word for 'computer' when you could think a bit and call it electric brain.

As to your second point, I agree that it is quite likely that future phonologist aand linguists will look at English loan words in Finnish and otherwise to determine how English sounded in the 20th and 21th centuries. It's a inexact method but it has been use for old Japanese, Egyptian and many other languages. Now if only there was a way to store sounds in a way that made it possible to replay it later. Perhaps one day.
1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7154 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 29 of 42
19 October 2009 at 8:18pm | IP Logged 
Gusutafu wrote:
Chung wrote:

Borrowing is hardly a "boring" or "lazy" way to come up with new words. It's merely another way that vocabularies can enrich themselves in addition to using neologisms or sometimes even creation "ex nihilo". The presence of loanwords can also yield clues in the development in the relevant languages. Thus they can say something about the language, just not in a way that is apparent to laymen.

For example there are many Germanic loanwords in Finnish, but the form of these loanwords in their Finnish forms yield additional clues to linguists about what Old Norse was like (especially with providing clues about sound changes). A similar situation exists with the Old Turkic loanwords in Hungarian. Many of these Old Turkic loanwords give some additional clues to etymologists about the development of the Turkic languages during the Dark Ages - this is especially valuable since whatever records we do have today about the people and languages of Central Asia of that era are rather scanty.

It's quite likely that in the future, the presence of English loanwords in several languages may yield clues about what English was like at the time of the appearance of those loanwords - this could be especially interesting or valuable if the originating word in English had already changed in some way (be it in pronunciation, form or meaning) or even fallen into disuse by native-speakers.


OK, to me it seems sort of lazy to phonetically transcribe the word for 'computer' when you could think a bit and call it electric brain.

As to your second point, I agree that it is quite likely that future phonologist aand linguists will look at English loan words in Finnish and otherwise to determine how English sounded in the 20th and 21th centuries. It's a inexact method but it has been use for old Japanese, Egyptian and many other languages. Now if only there was a way to store sounds in a way that made it possible to replay it later. Perhaps one day.


Sarcasm duly noted, Gusutafu... :-P Loanwords also illustrate how non-native speakers incorporate foreign sounds (or sometimes concepts) into their native tongue - it's common for a loanword not to be pronounced and/or used in exactly the same way as in the originating language. From a philological point of view, it has its uses.
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Gusutafu
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 5519 days ago
655 posts - 1039 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*

 
 Message 30 of 42
19 October 2009 at 8:48pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
Sarcasm duly noted, Gusutafu... :-P Loanwords also illustrate how non-native speakers incorporate foreign sounds (or sometimes concepts) into their native tongue - it's common for a loanword not to be pronounced and/or used in exactly the same way as in the originating language. From a philological point of view, it has its uses.


Yes, I see what you mean. (Sorry about the sarcasm...) But I am still saddened by the flood of English into Japanese, Hindi and other languages. When the borrowing is the result of a close cultural affinity it is less sad, especially if it happenes a long time ago like Chinese words in Japanese, and more interesting.

But to anyone that doesn't decry this tendency, have you spent time in Japan or a country with a similar situation? I don't remember my point of view before I lived there, but hearing badly pronounced English words with little regard for their actual meaning in every other sentence isn't enouraging. Especially in a country with such a proud and long history.
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Sennin
Senior Member
Bulgaria
Joined 6032 days ago
1457 posts - 1759 votes 
5 sounds

 
 Message 31 of 42
19 October 2009 at 9:04pm | IP Logged 
Gusutafu wrote:
OK, to me it seems sort of lazy to phonetically transcribe the word for 'computer' when you could think a bit and call it electric brain.


It's not a "brain", an electronic brain is yet to be invented... perhaps in our lifetime. Computers are "machines that compute" or "computational machines" ( or "electronic computational machines" if you want to be really verbose) and there's no problem translating that into another language. However, the resulting translation often consists of 2-3 words which is not convenient. That's why many languages favour a phonetic transcription.

In many cases it's possible to coin a term that's both short and meaningful but with things changing so quickly it seems to be a wasted effort.

Edited by Sennin on 19 October 2009 at 9:11pm
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Gusutafu
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 5519 days ago
655 posts - 1039 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*

 
 Message 32 of 42
19 October 2009 at 10:50pm | IP Logged 
Sennin wrote:
Gusutafu wrote:
OK, to me it seems sort of lazy to phonetically transcribe the word for 'computer' when you could think a bit and call it electric brain.


It's not a "brain", an electronic brain is yet to be invented... perhaps in our lifetime. Computers are "machines that compute" or "computational machines" ( or "electronic computational machines" if you want to be really verbose) and there's no problem translating that into another language. However, the resulting translation often consists of 2-3 words which is not convenient. That's why many languages favour a phonetic transcription.

In many cases it's possible to coin a term that's both short and meaningful but with things changing so quickly it seems to be a wasted effort.


I completely disagree. electric brain is Chinese's very elegant word for computer and it is both shorter (two syllables) and more readily understandable than the English word computer, which seems to mean "person that counts". Telephone is electric speech, also shorter more obvious than the longer Greek neologism meaning "distant sound".

Isn't it obvious that it's much easier to learn and remember things like "electric brain" than [some dubious neologism whose components most people don't know the meaning of]?

The word computer in Chinese has probably been used a hundred billion times already. Perhaps there will be no more computers in a hundred years, and then we can retire DIANNAO, but by then those two syllables will have served their purpose several trillion times. I doubt it took more than a few minutes to come up with the combination. I disagree that this could possibly be considered a "wasted effort".


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