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| tennisfan Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5362 days ago 130 posts - 247 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish Studies: German | Message 1 of 8 24 May 2010 at 9:11am | IP Logged |
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Hello everyone, I am wondering if someone could help me out with a grammar point I am not understanding.
I'm using the DLI program, and it just today introduced the dative-reflexive (?) îmi/își/ne/ecc. We have already used these (except for își) in learning the dative. Îmi dai cartea. Îți citesc cartea. Le-am trimis scrisoarea. and so on. This is easy. But I have no idea what the following sentence means (straight from the DLI book)--- Își va schimba camașa. Îți vei vinde automobilul? Și-au băut toată berea. Trebuie să-ți speli cartofii. So, can someone explain this to me? I have no idea how this pronoun functions. At first, I thought it was just some form of the reflexive, i.e., a se îmbrăcă, a se spăla, and so on, but that doesn't seem to be the case. DLI explains as some sort of possessive case, where it replaces a possessive pronoun: Beau cafeaua mea. ---> Imi beau cafeaua. Am consultat pe doctorul meu. ---> Mi-am consultat doctorul. DLI says it means something like "my own" or "their own." At first, since they take the same form as the dative, I thought it meant "to myself" and "to yourself" etc, as in Îți citești ziarul. (You read the paper *to yourself*). or Vă cumpărați hainele la București? (Do you buy clothes *for yourselves*?) however, Vă fumați țigările în clasă? (this would not make sense. Do you smoke cigarettes to/for yourselves?) The book seems to say that "iti citesti ziarul" doesn't mean "you read the news paper to yourself," rather: "You read your newspaper." If that is the case, then I am totally confused and would appreciate any help as to what this pronoun's purpose and function is in these words, particularly as it related to the regular reflexive. Thanks and sorry if this was confusing... 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| mirab3lla Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom lang-8.com/220477Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5445 days ago 161 posts - 229 votes Speaks: Romanian*, EnglishC2, German Studies: Spanish, FrenchB1, Mandarin | Message 2 of 8 24 May 2010 at 7:36pm | IP Logged |
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Well, your book is right. This pronoun is intended to replace a possessive.
"îmi beau cafeaua" means "I'm drinking MY coffee" so that îmi takes the role of my. You can use either "mea" or "îmi", the only difference is that "mea" is a possessive adjective ( adjectiv posesiv), while "îmi" is a personal pronoun. The adjective goes after the noun, the pronoun goes in front of the verb. I don't think I was too clear but..I've tried. However, congratulations for trying to learn Romanian and Good Luck ! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tennisfan Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5362 days ago 130 posts - 247 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish Studies: German | Message 3 of 8 24 May 2010 at 9:53pm | IP Logged |
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Thank you, it was definitely helpful.
So then is there no difference between saying the following: Îmi citesc ziarul. (I'm reading the paper to myself.) Îmi citesc ziarul. (I'm reading my newspaper.) Is context the only way to tell? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| NativeLanguage Octoglot Groupie United States nativlang.com Joined 5340 days ago 52 posts - 110 votes Speaks: French, Spanish, English*, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek, Portuguese, Catalan Studies: Japanese, Mayan languages, Irish | Message 4 of 8 24 May 2010 at 10:18pm | IP Logged |
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Romanian has two sets of reflexive clitic pronouns (and, so, two types of reflexive verbs): 1) the standard accusative type and 2) the secondary dative type. The lemma of type 1 is a se +infinitive (a se spăla), while type 2 has a-și +inf (a-și aminti). Extra info: type 1 comes from a Latin construction involving a transitive verb plus the accusative (direct object) form of the reflexive pronoun "sē", type 2 comes from a Latin construction involving an intransitive verb with the dative form of the same pronoun, "sibi".
But let's not get too caught up with the label "dative". Latin noun paradigms had distinct forms for the genitive (possessive) and dative cases. Through a process known as syncretism, Romanian applied the original dative case for both uses: grupul oamenilor 'the group of people' (genitive use). a zis oamenilor '(s)he said to the people' (dative use) This syncretism was so complete that we can simplify Romanian noun cases to one "unmarked" Nom/Acc vs. another "marked" Gen/Dat. Now, moving on to GEN/DAT pronouns: GEN/DAT Îți citești ziarul. 'You read your paper.' (GEN) Îți dai seamă... 'You realize...'; lit. 'you give yourself account' (DAT) So, our designated "type 2" reflexive pronoun actually covers up two underlying structures: type 2a, a dative reflexive pronoun and type 2b, a genitive reflexive pronoun. Same form, distinct use. We're in a position to answer your confusion: why is the dative form of the reflexive pronoun used in possessive constructions? Likely because the oblique form of Romanian nouns and pronouns is actually a "hybrid" GEN/DAT with two uses. Îmi, îți, își, etc can stand for 'of me/myself', 'of you/yourself', 'of oneself', etc. or 'to/for me', 'to/for you', 'to/for oneself', etc. The "regular" reflexive, on the other hand, is accusative. Unlike nouns, pronouns maintain a three-way case distinction: 1 - NOM, 2 - ACC, 3 - GEN/DAT (vs. 1 - NOM/ACC and 2 - GEN/DAT for nouns). This doesn't count the separate VOC, or vocative in Romanian. Extra info: comparatively, this is peculiar to Romanian and Eastern Romance - Western Romance (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.) has leveled all noun cases and often simplifies pronoun cases. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| ReachingOut Pentaglot Groupie Greece Joined 5239 days ago 57 posts - 81 votes Speaks: English*, German, GreekB2, French, Romanian Studies: Italian | Message 5 of 8 25 July 2010 at 6:17pm | IP Logged |
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Is there any difference in meaning between
"îmi citesc ziarul" and "citesc ziarul meu" ? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| daniela Newbie Romania Joined 5283 days ago 18 posts - 29 votes Speaks: Romanian* | Message 6 of 8 26 July 2010 at 10:34pm | IP Logged |
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Not really. Usually the first sentence seems more natural. If someone asks you what are you doing, you should answer: "Citesc ziarul" or "îmi citesc ziarul". If you want to emphasize the fact that you own the paper that you read (maybe someone tries to pick a quarrel with you, by pretending that you're reading somebody else's paper) you could use the second sentence. But even then it would sound a little bit unnatural.
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| daniela Newbie Romania Joined 5283 days ago 18 posts - 29 votes Speaks: Romanian* | Message 7 of 8 27 July 2010 at 7:20am | IP Logged |
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I forgot about something. Related to your example. If you say: "îmi notez detaliile", this doesn't mean that the details are yours. There are the details in the newspaper, but you're writing them down for your own use. And there are expressions like: "Îmi dau seama că e un ziar vechi". This mean you realize that it's an old paper. So "Îmi ... ceva" may mean that you own that object, or that you are doing the action to you.
I hope I didn't confused you even further. Edited by daniela on 27 July 2010 at 7:26am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| ReachingOut Pentaglot Groupie Greece Joined 5239 days ago 57 posts - 81 votes Speaks: English*, German, GreekB2, French, Romanian Studies: Italian | Message 8 of 8 27 July 2010 at 9:49am | IP Logged |
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Thanks Daniela, that was very helpful advice. Mulţumesc pentru ajutor!
1 person has voted this message useful |
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