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Pronouncing the French "R"

  Tags: Pronunciation | French
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19 messages over 3 pages: 1 2 3  Next >>
mrhenrik
Triglot
Moderator
Norway
Joined 6081 days ago
482 posts - 658 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French
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 Message 9 of 19
14 July 2010 at 8:41pm | IP Logged 
How long have you been studying for? I'm a fan of the "don't worry about it"-approach. I
had some initial issues with my r's, but since I'm not going to be socially ruined
because of them (won't move to France for another two years) I just noted that they
weren't right and went on with my life, perhaps paying a tiny bit more attention to how
native speakers pronounced theirs. I think it's improved a lot now.
2 persons have voted this message useful



sei
Diglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 5943 days ago
178 posts - 191 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, English
Studies: German, Japanese

 
 Message 10 of 19
14 July 2010 at 8:44pm | IP Logged 
JPike1028 wrote:
My suggestion is to listen to as much native french speaking as possible until you can imagine the sound in your head.
Then, imitate that sound. The brain ultimately controls all the mechanics of what you are trying to do. If you can hear
a sound in your mind then you can produce it aurally. In order to make the sound of a dog or a sheep we first have to
imagine what a dog or sheep sounds like, it's the same for all other sounds as well.


You're kinda wrong there. I wish it was like that! :D
I'm a Speech and Language Pathologist, and it'd be so much easier to treat a lot of patients if it was like that. Mostly, hearing it is an aid to being able to pronounce correctly, but it isn't going to get your muscles moving to the right place if they never had to do specific movements like that before. The greatest help to pronouncing anything is watching it being done.

Several books on phonetics and even some videos online (possibly if you search for IPA), will show a vertical cut image of the mouth, which will allow you to see the movements being done during the production of the sound.

But even then, sometimes your muscles just aren't ready to do it, or your brain has a hard time coordinating all the movements, so you just need to insist and practice (the method someone referred about gargling is pretty good for this sound, to get your muscles initially accustomed to it). I for example, have a lot of trouble doing a prolonged trilled /R/, and I have listened to it a lot (real life, during classes) and watched how it's done, but I still can barely do it. I just need to practice a lot more.

Sorry if this went off topic, but I didn't want people getting frustrated by listening a lot and still not being able to do it. It sometimes requires a lot more than that.
5 persons have voted this message useful



Arekkusu
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Canada
bit.ly/qc_10_lec
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 Message 11 of 19
14 July 2010 at 8:54pm | IP Logged 
sei wrote:
Several books on phonetics and even some videos online (possibly if you search for IPA), will show a vertical cut image of the mouth, which will allow you to see the movements being done during the production of the sound.

But even then, sometimes your muscles just aren't ready to do it, or your brain has a hard time coordinating all the movements, so you just need to insist and practice (the method someone referred about gargling is pretty good for this sound, to get your muscles initially accustomed to it). I for example, have a lot of trouble doing a prolonged trilled /R/, and I have listened to it a lot (real life, during classes) and watched how it's done, but I still can barely do it. I just need to practice a lot more.

Interesting point -- understanding what you do in your native language will go a long way in helping you see that sounds from other languages differ from yours and in which way.
1 person has voted this message useful



sei
Diglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 5943 days ago
178 posts - 191 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, English
Studies: German, Japanese

 
 Message 12 of 19
14 July 2010 at 9:18pm | IP Logged 
Arekkusu wrote:
Interesting point -- understanding what you do in your native language will go a long way in helping you see that sounds from other languages differ from yours and in which way.


Yes, very very true. :)
It's very helpful when trying to make a sound which doesn't exist in your native language.
1 person has voted this message useful



michaelmichael
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5259 days ago
167 posts - 202 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: French

 
 Message 13 of 19
14 July 2010 at 11:37pm | IP Logged 

well, i had to pass french in grade 11 and cegep (in quebec cegep is grade 12 and year 0 of uni), which i did . high school i just barely passed, and cegep i took the easiest french that was credited. i got 90% in it, but ya it really was the lowest level. my reading skills is by far the strongest, as i can translate pretty much most of the posts on the french forums.

i only went all out this summer. i took a 40hour course (its finished), and finished the michel thomas for beginners (well i did 8 cds, there are 2 review cds which i will do in the next 2 days). i've started pimsleur but im not very far in it. ive also started french in action, and assimil, again not very far. ive pretty much do michel thomas every day (my main), i do a pimleur a day, and then start playing around with other programs. im around chapter 10 in barrons french made easy ( i memorize the dialogue)and use byki flash cards, which i was once at 1200 words, but now im at 400 because i lost the save file somehow :(.


i agree with sei. i have a bit of a lisp, but when i found a site which showed a comp app that simulates the S and TH, i nailed it right away. i can now say think and sink distinctly, however it is not automatic for me, i have to think about the sink !!!
i've also made tremendous progress with the french R after seeing the pictures of tongue placement in the french in action book. so ya, i dont think you can necessarily pick up the sound by just hearing it. you need to know lip, tongue position/movement as well as how and where you blow air.
1 person has voted this message useful



Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 6441 days ago
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Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 14 of 19
15 July 2010 at 12:37am | IP Logged 
sei wrote:
JPike1028 wrote:
My suggestion is to listen to as much native french speaking as possible until you can imagine the sound in your head.
Then, imitate that sound. The brain ultimately controls all the mechanics of what you are trying to do. If you can hear
a sound in your mind then you can produce it aurally. In order to make the sound of a dog or a sheep we first have to
imagine what a dog or sheep sounds like, it's the same for all other sounds as well.


You're kinda wrong there. I wish it was like that! :D
I'm a Speech and Language Pathologist, and it'd be so much easier to treat a lot of patients if it was like that. Mostly, hearing it is an aid to being able to pronounce correctly, but it isn't going to get your muscles moving to the right place if they never had to do specific movements like that before. The greatest help to pronouncing anything is watching it being done.

Several books on phonetics and even some videos online (possibly if you search for IPA), will show a vertical cut image of the mouth, which will allow you to see the movements being done during the production of the sound.

But even then, sometimes your muscles just aren't ready to do it, or your brain has a hard time coordinating all the movements, so you just need to insist and practice (the method someone referred about gargling is pretty good for this sound, to get your muscles initially accustomed to it). I for example, have a lot of trouble doing a prolonged trilled /R/, and I have listened to it a lot (real life, during classes) and watched how it's done, but I still can barely do it. I just need to practice a lot more.

Sorry if this went off topic, but I didn't want people getting frustrated by listening a lot and still not being able to do it. It sometimes requires a lot more than that.


Thank you very much; this is an important note, and one which is too frequently ignored.

Would you share any links for such sites?
1 person has voted this message useful



sei
Diglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 5943 days ago
178 posts - 191 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, English
Studies: German, Japanese

 
 Message 15 of 19
15 July 2010 at 1:37am | IP Logged 
I did a bit of quick research, and... here you go:

International Phonetic Alphabet
Phonetics: The sounds of Spoken Language
Interactive Sagittal Section

From the best to the worse, in my opinion of course. Though the second is very good for those learning English, German or Spanish, as it allows them to see what is really the sound they should be making specifically.

I hope that's good. Enjoy! :)

Note: For those who don't know technical vocabulary, you might just want to read a bit of the wiki to be able to search the sound you're looking for. Or just click around a bit, and you'll find it. ;)

Edited by sei on 15 July 2010 at 1:40am
2 persons have voted this message useful



michaelmichael
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5259 days ago
167 posts - 202 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: French

 
 Message 16 of 19
15 July 2010 at 3:43am | IP Logged 
sei wrote:
I did a bit of quick research, and... here you go:

International Phonetic Alphabet
Phonetics: The sounds of Spoken Language
Interactive Sagittal Section

From the best to the worse, in my opinion of course. Though the second is very good for those learning English, German or Spanish, as it allows them to see what is really the sound they should be making specifically.

I hope that's good. Enjoy! :)

Note: For those who don't know technical vocabulary, you might just want to read a bit of the wiki to be able to search the sound you're looking for. Or just click around a bit, and you'll find it. ;)


thanks.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/ipa/dialog_main.php?num=28a&type=conso nants

i got this video from your link :D. it's exactly what ive been looking for


1 person has voted this message useful



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