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Languages you never studied, but know

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31 messages over 4 pages: 1 2 3 4  Next >>
goosefrabbas
Triglot
Pro Member
United States
Joined 6368 days ago
393 posts - 475 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: German, Italian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 17 of 31
22 April 2010 at 1:18am | IP Logged 
tracker465 wrote:
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I have met an educated person from Hamburg who didn't even understand Low German, which in principle is the local language (or dialect) of the area.


Migtht I suggest that there is a powerful psychological barrier, here?


I think that you might be right about a psychological barrier being in play, in terms of what can and cannot be understood.

I have a few Dutch friends which claim that they understand German, albeit have never studied it, though my German friends all say that they do not understand Dutch, unless they study it. Furthermore, I have a friend from Baden Würtenburg who speaks a horrid German dialect, and he says that he never speaks Hochdeutsch, because it is easier for him to speak his dialect. He later told me that other students at the university always ask him to repeat what he says, but that this is easier for him than to actually speak in Hochdeutsch, and they learn to adapt. There has to be a willingness to understand, and with that, understanding comes much more easily.


Maybe this "psychological barrier" would be relevant in the case of a local/minority language being overpowered by a majority language and the local language's speakers want to keep their heritage. But with German and Dutch (and even Spanish and Portuguese) there is a reason for this. [feel free to insert the word "generally" where needed throughout the next few sentences] Dutch-speakers understand German-speakers and Portuguese-speakers understand Spanish-speakers better than vice-versa because the former languages have more complex phonologies than the latter languages. Or, at least, the phonological inventory of German/Spanish is a subset of the inventories of the other languages. Basically, it's easier to understand what you've heard before than sounds that might sound similar because you're not used to hearing them.
1 person has voted this message useful



Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5334 days ago
4143 posts - 8864 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 18 of 31
22 April 2010 at 9:15am | IP Logged 
goosefrabbas wrote:
tracker465 wrote:
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I have met an educated person from Hamburg who didn't even understand Low German, which in principle is the local language (or dialect) of the area.


Migtht I suggest that there is a powerful psychological barrier, here?


I think that you might be right about a psychological barrier being in play, in terms of what can and cannot be understood.

I have a few Dutch friends which claim that they understand German, albeit have never studied it, though my German friends all say that they do not understand Dutch, unless they study it. Furthermore, I have a friend from Baden Würtenburg who speaks a horrid German dialect, and he says that he never speaks Hochdeutsch, because it is easier for him to speak his dialect. He later told me that other students at the university always ask him to repeat what he says, but that this is easier for him than to actually speak in Hochdeutsch, and they learn to adapt. There has to be a willingness to understand, and with that, understanding comes much more easily.


Maybe this "psychological barrier" would be relevant in the case of a local/minority language being overpowered by a majority language and the local language's speakers want to keep their heritage. But with German and Dutch (and even Spanish and Portuguese) there is a reason for this. [feel free to insert the word "generally" where needed throughout the next few sentences] Dutch-speakers understand German-speakers and Portuguese-speakers understand Spanish-speakers better than vice-versa because the former languages have more complex phonologies than the latter languages. Or, at least, the phonological inventory of German/Spanish is a subset of the inventories of the other languages. Basically, it's easier to understand what you've heard before than sounds that might sound similar because you're not used to hearing them.


This is one of the points I tried to make when I wrote this:
I may be too bold here, and I am deeply sorry if I offend anyone, but I think both German/Dutch and Spanish/Portuguese are a combination of the fact that one of the languages (German/Spanish) has a clearer pronunciation and is the dominant language both regarding exposure and political influence.Hence, easier to understand.

It did however sound a lot clearer when you said it!!
1 person has voted this message useful



patuco
Diglot
Moderator
Gibraltar
Joined 7015 days ago
3795 posts - 4268 votes 
Speaks: Spanish, English*
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 19 of 31
22 April 2010 at 5:46pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
The problem with those definitions is that they don't differentiate between passive and active skills

I remember a long, long time ago when, via our language profile, we could indicate, on a scale from 1-10, our abilities in reading, writing, speaking and listening in our respective languages.

Edited by patuco on 22 April 2010 at 5:46pm
1 person has voted this message useful



goosefrabbas
Triglot
Pro Member
United States
Joined 6368 days ago
393 posts - 475 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: German, Italian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 20 of 31
22 April 2010 at 8:08pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
goosefrabbas wrote:
tracker465 wrote:
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I have met an educated person from Hamburg who didn't even understand Low German, which in principle is the local language (or dialect) of the area.


Migtht I suggest that there is a powerful psychological barrier, here?


I think that you might be right about a psychological barrier being in play, in terms of what can and cannot be understood.

I have a few Dutch friends which claim that they understand German, albeit have never studied it, though my German friends all say that they do not understand Dutch, unless they study it. Furthermore, I have a friend from Baden Würtenburg who speaks a horrid German dialect, and he says that he never speaks Hochdeutsch, because it is easier for him to speak his dialect. He later told me that other students at the university always ask him to repeat what he says, but that this is easier for him than to actually speak in Hochdeutsch, and they learn to adapt. There has to be a willingness to understand, and with that, understanding comes much more easily.


Maybe this "psychological barrier" would be relevant in the case of a local/minority language being overpowered by a majority language and the local language's speakers want to keep their heritage. But with German and Dutch (and even Spanish and Portuguese) there is a reason for this. [feel free to insert the word "generally" where needed throughout the next few sentences] Dutch-speakers understand German-speakers and Portuguese-speakers understand Spanish-speakers better than vice-versa because the former languages have more complex phonologies than the latter languages. Or, at least, the phonological inventory of German/Spanish is a subset of the inventories of the other languages. Basically, it's easier to understand what you've heard before than sounds that might sound similar because you're not used to hearing them.


This is one of the points I tried to make when I wrote this:
I may be too bold here, and I am deeply sorry if I offend anyone, but I think both German/Dutch and Spanish/Portuguese are a combination of the fact that one of the languages (German/Spanish) has a clearer pronunciation and is the dominant language both regarding exposure and political influence.Hence, easier to understand.

It did however sound a lot clearer when you said it!!


Wow, I didn't even see that you posted that. I should pay more attention! ^_^
1 person has voted this message useful



William Camden
Hexaglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6272 days ago
1936 posts - 2333 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French

 
 Message 21 of 31
23 April 2010 at 2:53pm | IP Logged 
In my case, I can largely follow Azerbaijani, which I have never studied, because my knowledge of its close relative, Turkish, is pretty good.
I can get somewhere with Slavic languages I never studied, because of resemblances to those I have studied. It depends on the language, and the conditions.
Written Dutch is pretty comprehensible to me, through German. The spoken language much less so, and requires independent study.
Lastly, I have sometimes been able to follow the spoken Yiddish of Orthodox Jews, again through German.   
1 person has voted this message useful



rebrafi
Pentaglot
Newbie
Brazil
Joined 5329 days ago
18 posts - 23 votes
Speaks: Portuguese*, Spanish, Esperanto, French, English
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 22 of 31
28 April 2010 at 7:55pm | IP Logged 
goosefrabbas wrote:
Well, the forum's definitions are:
Basic Fluency - you understand at least 80% of a regular newspaper in your target language and can hold regular conversations about any topic, understanding what people say and getting your point across.
Advanced Fluency means that you can read a popular novel and not miss more than 2 words per page on average, and hold advanced conversations with minimal mistakes.

So, for example, if you can easily read books in Dutch and Portuguese but not exactly speak them, maybe you can average out Advanced Fluency and Intermediate and write down Basic Fluency. :)

In any case, within the forum I'd assume that most members know of the mutual intelligibility of the Scandinavian languages. Outside is probably a matter of preference and who you speak to (to Norwegians I don't think saying that you understand Swedish is necessary).


I agrre totally, I can read easily Catalan, Papiamento, Jerriais and Danish, even if I haven't studied these languages yet.

Edited by rebrafi on 28 April 2010 at 7:58pm
1 person has voted this message useful



ReneeMona
Diglot
Senior Member
Netherlands
Joined 5335 days ago
864 posts - 1274 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2
Studies: French

 
 Message 23 of 31
29 April 2010 at 2:57am | IP Logged 
I only studied German for three years but I still understand it better than French, which I've studied for at least twice as long, just because it's closer to Dutch. It's quite annoying but I guess it will come in handy if I ever decide to try to achieve fluency in German. I also understand Afrikaans and Flemish, except for some of the stronger accents, but I can only speak them a tiny bit which is why I haven't added them to my profile. It kind of felt like cheating. "Look at me, I'm tetraglot!", yeah right.

About the mutual intelligibility of Dutch and German, I think it does have to do with exposure. German being the bigger and better known language, it's only natural that Dutch people get more exposure to German than the other way around. We also study it in high school for at least 3 years (at Havo and WVO level anyway) and as far as I know Dutch is only taught in Germany in the areas close to the border.

I'm not sure if German has a clearer pronunciation since I can't look at Dutch and German very objectively. Is German easier to pronounce for foreign learners? You don't have to be afraid to offend me by the way, you're just stating it how it is. Why should I be offended by it?
1 person has voted this message useful



ruskivyetr
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5481 days ago
769 posts - 962 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 24 of 31
29 April 2010 at 3:53am | IP Logged 
You also have to think about exposure. In the posts above about the Dutch speakers understanding German
speakers and Portuguese speakers understanding Spanish speakers, you have to think about media situations.
Portuguese speakers probably hear a lot more Spanish essentially because of location. You can say that Portuguese
is the most spoken language in South America all you want, but Brazil is still in the center of all these Spanish
speaking countries. All the media coming from the surrounding countries is in Spanish, so Portuguese speakers get
more exposed to Spanish than vice versa. The same with Dutch speakers. They are a small linguistic population in
Northwestern Europe (in RELATIVITY to German, Dutch actually does have some linguistic power when you compare
it in the broad scheme of things). Obviously since the Netherlands is bordered by Germany, you have a lot of media
coming across the border. The Dutch don't dub English, German, and French (I THINK, please correct me if I'm
wrong) media. They put subtitles, so they are exposed to the spoken language with the translations. Pairing this
with the similarities, Dutch speakers are at an advantage in both English and German due to this subtitling.

Edited by ruskivyetr on 29 April 2010 at 3:54am


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