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Is spoken language really taught? | ||
Tags: Language Teaching | Speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 9 of 26 21 April 2010 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
Outside of Québec, immersion produces not-so-great results. First of all, most teachers are not native or else have a limited knowledge of the language, and find themselves trying to make their daily English lifestyles into French, without access to natives. As a result, you get very unnatural French that artificially introduces uncommon words in daily situations or sounds like English with French words. BUT this is not the subject of the post. Your question is interesting, and it's true that a lot of learners aim to read and write and not to speak. Personally, I find both systems important, but I always aim for the spoken language first. The spoken language employs different strategies to resolve unexpected mishaps that written language doesn’t have to deal with. Shorter spoken sentences also require a lot of different connecting words. How much the spoken and the written differ depends on the language. In English, the difference is mininal compared to Québec French, for instance. In Québec, students who study the language academically find themselves unable to follow conversations between natives even after years, because they were never taught how to understand Québec French. This is not necessarily an easy thing to teach from the first lesson though. Je suis becomes j'suis, de la becomes d'la, il is y, elle is a, je suis arrivé is usually said as j't'arrivé... I suppose teaching all these variants would require a long learning curve at the beginning, but better results in the long run, if not right away. But how do you convince the student that this is better for him? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6011 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 10 of 26 21 April 2010 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't think it's even just a matter of spoken vs written. Too often Spanish is still treated like something it isn't in either the spoken or written forms -- French.
It's all "Subject-verb-object for statements" and "verb-subject-object for questions", but that's nonsense. Whether you're listening or reading, there's no fixed order in most of the language, regardless of indicative/interrogative. I spend a hell of a lot of my time speaking in OVS!! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 11 of 26 22 April 2010 at 1:21am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think that much of the problem stems from the fact that our scientific knowledge of real spoken language is actually quite recent. It has only been since the early seventies and with the development of sociolinguistics that we have begun to systematically study the spoken form. On the other hand, language teaching is still for the most part bound to the printed word and therefore totally biased toward the formal form.
I have always remarked that the people who have the best accent in a foreign language inevitably have learned the language through some form of immersion. And that includes those many people who have never really studied the written language. They just picked it up orally and usually speak in a natural manner, unlike those untold numbers of people who study a language and can't speak it. Obviously massive exposure to the language at an early age is a very important factor. I mentioned French immersion schools in Canada, but this also applies to those American schools or lycées français that one finds in many of the world's capitals. They may not do a great job in making one truly bilingual but they are a lot better than traditional language classes. The problem seems to be two-fold. Firstly, it is impossible to reproduce the immersive experience of daily interaction in a book, an audio course or a piece of software. I don't doubt that as technology advances we will be able to make language learning more realistic. Secondly, we often lack some of the basic descriptive materials or resources in order to incorporate more realism into learning materials. For example, insofar as Quebec French is concerned, in 2010 we don't have a comprehensive descriptive dictionary of Québecois French. There have been some attempts in the past and something is coming out of the Université de Sherbrooke. There are plenty of folkloric collections of expressions but nothing really scientific. One also finds amusing guides to slang because they contain the salacious language that people love to learn. But no serious guide to Québecois pronunciation in all its variation. Neither can one find a grammar of Québécois French. The end result of course is that the language taught can be quite different from what is spoken. As I write the last sentence, I would be remiss to not mention that the teaching materials of the Ministère de l'immigration do actually illustrate the local language quite well but not necessarily the most vernacular variety. On this latter point, I would also like to say in English, as in French, and as I suspect in most languages, the spoken vernacular or slang is not the only spoken form. As I mentioned earlier the spoken language varies along a continuum from the most vulgar and dialectal to the most formal. Edited by s_allard on 22 April 2010 at 1:22am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 12 of 26 22 April 2010 at 2:29am | IP Logged | |||||
The field of artificial intelligence, and computers, will eventually evolve to the point where a computer will provide a genuine conversational experience, but this is likely some decades away. What do you think can be done sooner, including right now? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 13 of 26 22 April 2010 at 3:55am | IP Logged | |||||
Frankly, I don't know what should be done. I'm not a course designer. It just seems to me that a lot of times we have all this knowledge about a language yet we are unable to fluently carry on a basic conversation. But I do have a few ideas that I'll throw out for purposes of discussion. But let me first say that some of these ideas are probably not very original because a lot of us use similar approaches to learning how to speak. 1. Keep the focus on the spoken language. Yes, the spoken language does have its registers and, yes, for teaching purposes we write things, but the emphasis must always be on oral performance. This would suggest using lots of varied authentic materials. 2. Probably the most important form of spoken language is the conversation. So we have to study the techniques of conducting a conversation. We know that conversations revolve around a question and answer structure. So, we have to master that art of asking questions and formulating answers. It's simple to say but there many things involved. How does one frame a question? One common form is simply "I would like to know", "j'aimerais savoir" or "quisiera saber" that lead automatically into a question. We could look at techniques for taking turns speaking, correcting mistakes (one's own and those of others), connecting phrases, how to communicate sarcasm, irony and disdain. 3. Techniques for giving instructions and orders to different audiences. How do you talk to young children? To patients in a medical clinic, to students in a classroom, to customers in a supermarket, etc.? How do you talk to dogs? Not as easy as it looks. 4. A form of ear training to become accustomed to social and regional accents and to the the phonetics of speech at normal speed. I'm thinking here of juncture phenomena, when words meet. 5. How to narrate events and tell stories. Here it's important to master the past tense and how to situate things in space and time. 6. How to give speeches and talk in public. There are a few other items that come to mind, but I don't want to hog the thread. Edit: I don't want to forget: 7. How to apologize to individuals and to groups. Edited by s_allard on 22 April 2010 at 4:03am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Spanky Senior Member Canada Joined 5956 days ago 1021 posts - 1714 votes Studies: French | Message 14 of 26 22 April 2010 at 4:31am | IP Logged | |||||
I think technology in the relatively near future will provide considerably more assistance for those independently learning a foreign language. While genuine conversational experience with Skynet and HAL, etc. may be some time off, I have no doubt that we are not far off from having vastly improved voice recognition programmes that will be of assistance for independent learners (suitably equipped with a microphone) in perhaps the following ways: 1. assisting in acquring reasonable pronunciations by monitoring the learner's audio submissions and correctly or improving where appropriate - there has been an aspect of this in French language learning materials a few years ago (I've forgotten the name or manufacturer) which requested that the learner read out loud a word or phrase, and the software would rate how closely the attempt was. This did not work well for me - I blamed the software or the cr*ppy mic I was using rather than my excellent pronunciation. I am certain improvements are on the way. 2. greater interactive learning materials tailored to the learner's audio responses - in a similar manner voice automated customer service telephone services like 411 in many parts of North America are being used currently, with a reasonably modest improvement in voice recognition, a computer programme should soon be able to, for instance, ask a learner how to say a sample sentence in the target language, and then respond with an explanation of why that attempt is wrong: if the response uses the wrong word or the wrong tense or word order or what have you, the software would be able to kick back the appropriate feedback, hint, review materials, etc. This would not be sourced from an actual AI perspective, but rather part of the software that is simply responsive to the actual efforts of the learner. Edited by Spanky on 22 April 2010 at 4:33am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5881 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 15 of 26 22 April 2010 at 6:38am | IP Logged | |||||
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And it's what it all comes down to isn't it? The reason why most try to learn another language, to be able to speak it.
First, you have to want it. You have to be willing to do what most won't. There is a lot of work involved. 6 months in I was speaking about everything with natives, making mistakes and asking questions. By the time I had 2 years in, natives couldn't believe it when I told them and yet I still pushed for more. Now with over 4 years of constant dedication to learning and speaking I speak better than ever, but it's still an on-going process. There is always so much more to learn, so much more that can be improved upon. s allard, you're right when you say you have to focus on the spoken part of it. You have to have your goals and speaking is at the top of the list. My language is Spanish. When I did LSLC, I grabbed paper and pencil and using the pause button, I wrote out each dialogue that comes with the beginning of each lesson. That was challenging in it's own right just being able to hear every word and get it on paper. Then I would read it out loud over and over again several times, then listen again and comprehend more and more. The idea was that I wanted to be able to say what I was hearing in the conversation at the same speed and cadence as the natives. Soon I was speaking over the speakers in real time and keeping up, all the while knowing that this was going to translate into real world conversations, and it did. They call that shadowing here, I was doing that long before I bumped into this place because I could see the value of training myself to speak. Another thing I would do and to this day still do is come up with a conversation that I want to have with someone, or one that is just made up. Then I wright it down on paper and read it out loud several times getting it to imprint in my head, so it's there for the next time I want it. This can happen all the time. Something comes to mind and you ask yourself if you can say the same thing in your target language. Can be about anything. I have Spanish tv on when I'm at home and I constantly parrot over what I'm hearing, whether it's news, a novela or a movie. Something sticks out during a dialogue and I just start repeating it over and over, sometimes 5 or more times as I completely tune out what is happening on the show and focus on what I just heard, I want to know that I have it...that I can reproduce it on the fly. I do this all the time and in the car too with Spanish radio. You have to read a lot, and out loud. Novels. You have to work at it until you can feel your speech is natural, with the right intonation and speed. You can enjoy the story, but at the same time you can tell how your speaking is improving, and you know this is going to transfer over to real conversations. You need to have podcasts in your head all the time, your ipod with you all the time and making the effort to learn the conversations and repeat over the speakers, or to pause and then repeat what you just heard. Real interviews, real conversations, not just the scripted stuff. You have to find people to speak with, you have to force yourself out of your comfort zone and get wet. If you want to be able to speak then you have to do what's necessary. You have to start reproducing what you're learning, speaking about everything and all the time. To be able to do it well requires massive effort and dedication. And in my opinion, focusing only on one language. Maybe after 6 or 7 years of doing all of this then a person could safely start another language, but speaking for me, I would only do that if I could learn the new language using materials in my 2nd language and only if I could continue speaking with native speakers on a regular basis, otherwise too much would be lost after too much work. It comes down to the person. If you want it you can do it. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 LauraM Pro Member United States Joined 5352 days ago 77 posts - 97 votes Studies: German Personal Language Map | Message 16 of 26 22 April 2010 at 9:40am | IP Logged | |||||
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Wow! Hypersport, I could have written 75% of your post (substituting German)!
I find this thread VERY interesting and I hope it continues. I love all the perspectives! I remember when I was first learning German. Due to using it only with children, most of what I was learning in books/tapes, etc. was wrong...well, not "wrong" but certainly "off." Asking a simple question seemed pretty straightforward in the books and tapes. But I had no idea I would come across as "harsh" without adding a "denn, da, aber" or "doch!" Like, where the heck were these extra words coming from and what did they mean, I used to wonder. Now I can't imagine speaking without throwing them in there! But no book teaching the language seemed to explain this, although occasionally I encountered them but kind of brushed them to the side until I realized and accepted that they were in there for no particular reason, yet they were of importance. LOL I learn a LOT from children's cartoons. Many are American ones dubbed in German, although I hate non- animated dubbed films. Hate them Again, Hypersport, you've really made me feel good about my methodology! I've only been at German for about a year now (spoke it when I was much younger but had lost most of it), but I hope to have similar success! Thanks a bunch for taking the time! Edited by LauraM on 23 April 2010 at 6:24am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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