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If you wanna live here, learn [English].

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
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Spanky
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5956 days ago
1021 posts - 1714 votes 
Studies: French

 
 Message 25 of 74
29 April 2010 at 7:51pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:

A different example for comparison is Canada since it does things differently from the USA but shares a similar trait by consisting largely of people descended from immigrants who've entered the population throughout the past 2 centuries. English and French are official, but in practice it is pretty much a lie based on what I saw during my time in Canada. Outside Québec and properties of the Federal Government (e.g. airports) French is virtually unknown to any practical level (meeting some English-speaking Canadian who can say without a thick accent "bonjour" or "voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir?" doesn't count :-P). The official imposition of French is more a relic of history when the French and English were fighting for control for that part of North America rather than some high-minded policy of language tolerance.


Nope, Canada's federal official bilingual policy is far from a lie, but it is frequently misunderstood.   Official bilingualism in no way equates to an assumption that individual Canadians or even different Canadian regions are bilingual; rather, it is a promise (not an imposition) that federal services and access will be made available in both of Canada's official federal languages throughout the country, at the option of the individual attempting to access those services or interact with the federal government.

While it is true that in large parts of the country Canadians may be fluent only in one of these two languages (and it is not just a Quebec v. rest of Canada issue, by the way, as New Brunswick has a significant 32% population of citizens who have French as a mother language, and a greater number of English/French bilinguals), but that does not conflict with federal official bilingual policy in any fashion.   It is far from an historical relic; it is our present reality, and really more a policy of accomodation than imposition.    

Language politics at the provincial (especially Quebec) level, however, is way more involved and considered by some to be a blood sport (and interestingly New Brunswick is the only province with official bilingual status).


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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7156 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 26 of 74
29 April 2010 at 8:32pm | IP Logged 
Spanky wrote:
Chung wrote:

A different example for comparison is Canada since it does things differently from the USA but shares a similar trait by consisting largely of people descended from immigrants who've entered the population throughout the past 2 centuries. English and French are official, but in practice it is pretty much a lie based on what I saw during my time in Canada. Outside Québec and properties of the Federal Government (e.g. airports) French is virtually unknown to any practical level (meeting some English-speaking Canadian who can say without a thick accent "bonjour" or "voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir?" doesn't count :-P). The official imposition of French is more a relic of history when the French and English were fighting for control for that part of North America rather than some high-minded policy of language tolerance.


Nope, Canada's federal official bilingual policy is far from a lie, but it is frequently misunderstood.   Official bilingualism in no way equates to an assumption that individual Canadians or even different Canadian regions are bilingual; rather, it is a promise (not an imposition) that federal services and access will be made available in both of Canada's official federal languages throughout the country, at the option of the individual attempting to access those services or interact with the federal government.

While it is true that in large parts of the country Canadians may be fluent only in one of these two languages (and it is not just a Quebec v. rest of Canada issue, by the way, as New Brunswick has a significant 32% population of citizens who have French as a mother language, and a greater number of English/French bilinguals), but that does not conflict with federal official bilingual policy in any fashion.   It is far from an historical relic; it is our present reality, and really more a policy of accomodation than imposition.    

Language politics at the provincial (especially Quebec) level, however, is way more involved and considered by some to be a blood sport (and interestingly New Brunswick is the only province with official bilingual status).



Actually you are correct. I didn't present myself properly. The federal policy on bilingualism is indeed more or less effective (within the confines of federal properties where employees are to be bilingual), however it is misunderstood as meaning that all of Canada from Newfoundland to the border of Yukon and Alaska is bilingual. The distribution of bilingual people is concentrated in certain areas (geographical or political), but when it comes to the official languages much of the country has fluency in only one them (plus any non-official languages where applicable).

I still maintain that it is uniform English-French bilingualism is a historical relic, since the Federal Government follows effectively a policy of English + French from Canada's confederation when the new federation was the successor of Canada East ("Lower Canada" or more or less Labrador and southern Québec) with Canada West ("Upper Canada" or more or less southern and central Ontario). Of course in later years it was reinterpreted more strongly as a way of accommodation to vocal nationalists from Québec who were becoming increasingly uneasy about French losing even more ground to English in Canada. Effectively it is also an imposition since it means that services in French are offered where French is practically unknown to any useful level. The policy pays more homage to history rather than the present reality of most areas. In fact I would argue that it'd make more sense for Canada to have more fluid bilingualism by recognizing that bilingualism of English + Manadrin makes sense in some heavily-populated areas of British Columbia, or English + Inuit in the Northwest Territories.

Your point about New Brunswick is an interesting reminder since it is indeed the only province that is officially bilingual.
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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6943 days ago
2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 27 of 74
29 April 2010 at 8:47pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
I still maintain that it is uniform English-French bilingualism is a historical relic.

In fact I would argue that it'd make more sense for Canada to have more fluid bilingualism by recognizing that bilingualism of English + Manadrin makes sense in some heavily-populated areas of British Columbia, or English + Inuit in the Northwest Territories.


But History is important. French and English are the original languages of the land, which must be specially accommodated, while Chinese is an "immigrant" language that should in due time be replaced by one or both of the native languages.

Inuit is, of course, even more native historically, but Native American languages often present a problem in not having a sufficient number of speakers to sustain themselves properly, certainly not at the national level. I am not certain if Paraguay is the only country in either North and South America where a European language is co-official with the local Native American one, but it is undoubtedly a rare exception.


Edited by frenkeld on 29 April 2010 at 8:56pm
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katilica
Bilingual Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 5471 days ago
70 posts - 109 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish*
Studies: French, Catalan

 
 Message 28 of 74
29 April 2010 at 9:47pm | IP Logged 
datsunking1 wrote:
Chung wrote:
I'm with datsunking1 on this one so long as
everything is taken into context. The provocative message aside (it seems that the
candidate is trying to get a punchy and easy-to-digest message to appeal to the
electorate), the spirit of the message shouldn't be discarded out of hand by people
itching to bash either the USA or the current global position of English in general.

If I were in a country whose official/state/national language were unfamiliar to me,
why should I take offense to the suggestion that I need to effectively learn/build up a
sufficiently high level in that language in order to attain citizenship/survive/sit for
a driver's licensing test/etc? I'd be pretty damned stupid if I were living or working
in say Romania, and then demand that Romanian authorities cater to me by offering all
sorts of services in English just because my Romanian isn't good enough. It's MY
problem that my Romanian wouldn't be good enough and nobody else's.

It smells like a cop-out when spreading the responsibility to other citizens or
insinuate that someone else isn't doing enough and thus that should absolve me from
putting forth an honest effort in learning the target language and related customs.



Not to mention we are spending billions of dollars of tax payer's money on translated
materials for these people... that don't pay taxes... It doesn't really make sense to
me.

I think the major problem that people learning English have is that they group
themselves with people that speak their native language, so they learn next to nothing
most of the time


Sure what I am about to say does not apply to everyone but... many illegals do pay
taxes. They do not have a social security number but they can get something called an
ITIN in order to file taxes. Believe me, the IRS does not care whether or not you are
illegal, they just want their money so they make this available. I know there are many
that don't pay taxes but the same can be said for some US citizens as well. Just in
advance I know the response will be that the difference is that one group is illegal
and the other isn't and I admit that my statement might have been a cheap shot. I agree
that being sorrounded by Spanish speakers doesn't really help since they are being
catered to and therefore have little or no motivation to learn. By the
way, I thought this thread was strictly about English? funny how people can never keep
it that way.
c:

Edited by katilica on 29 April 2010 at 9:50pm
1 person has voted this message useful



frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6943 days ago
2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 29 of 74
29 April 2010 at 10:16pm | IP Logged 
katilica wrote:
By the way, I thought this thread was strictly about English? Funny how people can never keep it that way.


Er, if English was the only language, we wouldn't have this thread to begin with, and it's not Mongolian that it has to compete with in the US.

The question is ultimately whether we want to turn a monolingual country into a bilingual one. The examples of Belgium and, in the past, Canada, show that one can end up with a great deal of disfunction in society due to language politics, so it is not unfair that some people should question whether it is a good idea to give up on monolingualism.

1 person has voted this message useful



Genocyde
Groupie
United States
Joined 5772 days ago
56 posts - 75 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: German, Russian, Mandarin, Persian

 
 Message 30 of 74
29 April 2010 at 10:27pm | IP Logged 
Guys....you're missing the point here, it doesn't matter because...


All jokes aside though. I think this guy is an A-hole. I do however think that 12 languages is a bit much. I say take the top 4 languages in the area, or maybe the country, and offer the test in those.
4 persons have voted this message useful



Saif
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5612 days ago
122 posts - 208 votes 
Speaks: English*, Arabic (Levantine)*, French

 
 Message 31 of 74
29 April 2010 at 10:38pm | IP Logged 
Genocyde wrote:
Guys....you're missing the point here, it doesn't matter because...
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LOL! Voted for your post because it made me laugh. :D
1 person has voted this message useful



katilica
Bilingual Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 5471 days ago
70 posts - 109 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish*
Studies: French, Catalan

 
 Message 32 of 74
29 April 2010 at 11:12pm | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:
katilica wrote:
By the way, I thought this thread was strictly
about English? Funny how people can never keep it that way.


Er, if English was the only language, we wouldn't have this thread to begin with, and
it's not Mongolian that it has to compete with in the US.

The question is ultimately whether we want to turn a monolingual country into a
bilingual one. The examples of Belgium and, in the past, Canada, show that one can end
up with a great deal of disfunction in society due to language politics, so it is not
unfair that some people should question whether it is a good idea to give up on
monolingualism.

Oh no, me and my horrible way of phrasing things. I meant to say that we were focusing
on languages and how people started going on about taxes and legal status (myself
included). It also wasn't meant as an attack on anyone just a simple observation. I
love how everything you say online sounds 100x worse than it is since it is hard to
read things like humor, sarcasm, and tone of voice. See, I thought adding some random
smiley face might help send out the message I wasn't arguing but it never seems to
work. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.
D: (<--- despair??)


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