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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| skeeterses Senior Member United States angelfire.com/games5Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6618 days ago 302 posts - 356 votes  1 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Korean, Spanish | Message 41 of 74 30 April 2010 at 4:29am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'll add in that this debate about the number of languages on the test kind of sidesteps the real issues facing America.
Practically speaking, we could limit the number of languages on driver license forms down to the top 4 languages spoken in the region. But the cost of administrating driving tests pales in comparison with the cost of building and maintaining all the highways, roads, and parking lots for all the cars. Remember, new motorists have to pay money to take the driving test and pay money for the required supervised driving hours as well as license renewal fees every 5 years. A drivers license is not free lunch. The real cost is the roads. In a lot of big cities like New York and Washington DC, its not unusual to find sections on highways that are 12 lanes wide. And when you go to a supermarket to get food, the stores are usually in a strip mall surrounded by a parking lot the size of several football fields. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| goosefrabbas Triglot Pro Member United States Joined 6368 days ago 393 posts - 475 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: German, Italian Personal Language Map | Message 42 of 74 30 April 2010 at 4:53am | IP Logged | |||||
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I helped teach ESL for two years. A lot of the students attended for years and tried hard, but they barely spoke conversational English. Why?
Many worked 10+ hours a day to live here and support their family from back home. With the money, a lot couldn't afford transportation, so why spend it on books? Admittedly, I don't think a dedicated learner would find serious trouble while living in the country where the language is spoken. Quite a few of them also only attended school until about 10 years of age, if at all. I don't know if education in the first language affects the ability to learn a second later in life, but there seemed to be a correlation. There were two university-educated students - an engineer from Mexico and a teacher from Guatemala. Those were the only two who picked up on the language quickly. After only a few weeks, at only 2-4 hours a week, they didn't have to come anymore because the people who had been coming for months or years were holding them back. These aren't excuses, but obstacles for mainly Latin Americans learning English. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 43 of 74 30 April 2010 at 5:02am | IP Logged | |||||
There is a difference between "remembering" and throwing something in people's faces. So, someone asks whether bilingualism might not bring some negative side effects with it, and what he or she hears in reply is that you bastards mistreated the Indians, so eat it now. You can say it more or less nicely, but this is what all these arguments boil down to, including some in your post. I find these arguments racist - I said it earlier in this thread and will say it again. There are reasonable ways to discuss the language issue, this isn't one of them. Edited by frenkeld on 30 April 2010 at 5:02am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 44 of 74 30 April 2010 at 5:11am | IP Logged | |||||
As far as the low educational level of the students, I've seen statements that the US should steer the mix of immigrants who are admitted here towards a greater number of professionals and educated people. My impression is that Canada is more selective in this regard, but my information may be outdated or just wrong. It is likely a myth that all the tired and poor masses that came to the US over the last two centuries quickly and efficiently became fluent English speakers. I bet many of them spoke broken English until the end of their lives. Ethnic enclaves are also nothing new. That's how it was, that's how it still is. It would be useful for the purposes of this thread to understand exactly what has changed between how things were a 100 years ago and nowadays. Otherwise, we'll be having a discussion without being clear about the basic historical facts. Edited by frenkeld on 30 April 2010 at 5:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ManicGenius Senior Member United States Joined 5481 days ago 288 posts - 420 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, French, Japanese | Message 45 of 74 30 April 2010 at 5:56am | IP Logged | |||||
First of all, "3rd World Country" is an obsolete term. Additionally, the term "Developing World" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me considering China is considered the "Developing World". Looks pretty god damn developed to me already, and developing even further. Using that term seems pretty friggin egotistical to assume that we are the pinnacle of civilization. The United States gov has a nasty habit of tacking those titles onto countries simply because they don't follow our way of life (mass consumption, little production, strip malls, etc, etc). And no, the US will not become a "3rd world country". Our GDP is estimated to be 2nd to 3rd for the next 50 years. 50 years is a long ass time. Technically a lifetime in some areas of the world. (2nd/3rd to India and China). If the UK is 8th on the list right now, I really really think that's not going to constitute us as being a 3rd world country. Besides, I plan on moving to one of those "3rd world countries" by that time anyways since I can live a heluva lot longer on my savings there than I ever could here. With the added bonus of needing to speak a second language in my daily life. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 46 of 74 30 April 2010 at 6:58am | IP Logged | |||||
Well, yeah, that's why I said "there are people who". This didn't include myself, but may have included the person I was replying to, although he might have actually meant that the rest of Latin America will catch up to the US rather than the US drop down to their level. The "third world country" is a harsh term, with a lot of negative connotations, but then life in some of those countries is not a bed of roses - people don't risk their lives crossing international borders without a good reason. One characteristic of such societies is small middle class and a wide gulf between the rich and the poor. The economic trends in the US have actually been in that direction in recent decades. We'll have to see if this trend will reverse itself in the decades ahead. Having a large group of immigrants who don't know English would certainly not help, but then it's hard to know if it's actually going to happen. It's worth remembering that immigrants benefit economically from knowing English. Edited by frenkeld on 30 April 2010 at 5:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kmart Senior Member Australia Joined 6124 days ago 194 posts - 400 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian | Message 47 of 74 30 April 2010 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
What's with this "assimilate into their culture" stuff? Why is the "learn English" debate usually coupled with "assimilate into our culture"? Why should immigrants conform to the adopted country's culture? Surely one of the most special things about "multi-cultural" countries like the USA, Australia, Canada, is the diverse cultures that have been brought to them, the vibrant and interesting mix of cuisine, customs, tastes and arts? Why is it a bad thing to bring your country's customs with you, and to hold onto them and pass down to your children? It sure wasn't the English speaking part of the population that gave us decent coffee ! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 48 of 74 30 April 2010 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
Some cultural differences, like honor killings, can be sufficiently extreme that they are simply incompatible with the ways of the adopted country. Less extreme differences can be more of a gray area. Societies do need a certain level of social cohesion to function. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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