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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 57 of 74 01 May 2010 at 2:12am | IP Logged | |||||
We are not discussing general American history here, and context is everything. Mentioning the treatment of Native Americans in the 19th century in the context of discussion about Spanish in the US in 2010 is often done for the purpose of pulling a guilt trip. Here is a quote from the post I was originally replying to: "I disagree with the English-only movement. Especially the "If you come to America, learn English!" phrase. It's just so horribly ironic. I wonder what language the Indians in your area were speaking before they were thrown out of their own land and forced to speak another language (and in many cases, be severely penalized if they spoke their own?), Mr/Ms. American Who Wants People to Learn the Language of the Land." I was offended by that post not simply because of the argument it put forward, if it indeed contained a logical argument, but because I found its tone offensive, and the rhetorical tricks employed there all too common. The following link is an interesting illustration of how the past can get invoked against a group of people in a manner unrelated to the subject at hand for ulterior motives: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/04/ Germans_unhappy_over_greece.html Quoting from there: "Others, however, are sensing that the German character is being questioned again. Tom Buhrow, a news anchor with ARD, noted in an article in the International Herald Tribune that "old accusations start to fly. Is that what the European project is? Either Germany foots the bill or our past is invoked against us." For many Germans it must be that history is never expunged but merely parked, held in reserve, to be used against them if they get out of line." As you can see, the same "technique" used in entirely different circumstances. Push people's buttons and see if it helps your case. Now, one can raise a question of whether there may be some historic justice issues that would justify allowing Spanish a special status in the US aside from or in addition to other possible reasons. I happen to think not, and can explain why if you are interested, but any issue can certainly be raised and discussed, and disagreed about, but not in the way it was in the post I was replying to. I actually do feel rather odd when running into Native Americans, like Apaches or Navajo, or when driving through their reservations, and would be OK with at least the rudiments of one of those languages taught in Arizona schools, but then, they really are from around here. Edited by frenkeld on 01 May 2010 at 2:24am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| DaisyMaisy Senior Member United States Joined 5380 days ago 115 posts - 178 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish Studies: Swedish, Finnish | Message 58 of 74 01 May 2010 at 4:23am | IP Logged | |||||
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okay, I get what you're saying....I hadn't read the post you are referring to so I may have missed some of the context you were referring to, my bad... :)
anyway, I'll try to stay on topic! I was thinking about the multiple languages for driver's tests today and I came to the conclusion that I would rather people know that the octagonal red sign that says "STOP" means - stop, etc. On the other hand, I can see the point that perhaps learning some basic English should be a requirement for driving. After all there are sometimes road hazards that are put on signs, or instructions that may be needed in an emergency, or even a minor accident requires being able to discuss insurance information and such. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tritone Senior Member United States reflectionsinpo Joined 6120 days ago 246 posts - 385 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Portuguese, French | Message 59 of 74 01 May 2010 at 4:52am | IP Logged | |||||
The original language of the U.S was indeed English... other languages were spoken in certain regions before they became part of the United States, and of course before the country even existed/was colonized but that's irrelevant. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 60 of 74 01 May 2010 at 4:54am | IP Logged | |||||
There is such a thing as an international driver's license. A visitor with such a license would presumably be able to drive without having to pass an English test, with the reciprocal rights for English speakers in other countries that accept this type of license. I was in Spain once and someone there told me he found two things to be rather odd in American movies, the "you are fired" scenes, and traffic signs in plain English. Presumably, the process required to fire someone is longer in Spain, and the signs are of the international, or at least some sort of European, variety, symbolic rather than verbal. Having a huge chunk of a continent for a playground resulted in a different approach to road signs in the US, that's all there is to it. There is probably as yet no compelling reason to switch to the more symbolic road signs here, but opinions may differ on that. The cost of switching could certainly be substantial. Edited by frenkeld on 01 May 2010 at 9:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| DaisyMaisy Senior Member United States Joined 5380 days ago 115 posts - 178 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish Studies: Swedish, Finnish | Message 61 of 74 01 May 2010 at 4:58am | IP Logged | |||||
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ha ha, now I'm picturing Donald Trump saying "you are fired" and trying to figure out how to say it in Spanish!
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5334 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 62 of 74 01 May 2010 at 10:07am | IP Logged | |||||
Both your statements are true, yet they do not convey the full picture. It is certainly possible for people to come with driving licenses from other countries, but it is rare, and they usually stay for a short while, which limits the possible dangers. In my 48 years I have only come across three cases of someone who stayed for any length of time with a foreign driving license, one being Norwegian, the others being one American and one Chinese, who have both learned Norwegian. The issue we are discussing here, are for people who are permanent residents. Having said that, I would certainly prefer a driver who did not speak Norwegian over a drunk driver. Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 04 May 2010 at 5:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5453 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 63 of 74 01 May 2010 at 10:23am | IP Logged | |||||
I've also wondered why the have to write so much text on American road signs. The road signs with pictograms used in Europe are based on the Vienna conventions. They are used all around the world, even in the US to some extent. In the US they often put text below the pictograph to explain it though: "NO U TURN". I think safety may be a good reason to switch from verbal to symbolic road signs even in monolingual countries. You can probably convey the same information in less time by a simple, standardised, well known symbol than by text. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tracker465 Senior Member United States Joined 5352 days ago 355 posts - 496 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 64 of 74 01 May 2010 at 10:26am | IP Logged | |||||
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I am reading through these messages and have quite a few things to say.
-Regarding the initial video and message by Tim James (I think that was his name, anyway): I found the video to be quite offensive, and hope that the man does not make it past this election. I, for one, am so tired of the cliché lines of “This is America, we speak English here.” Sure, the majority of the population does speak English in the USA. But how does one answer the fact that the United States does not have an official language? What about states such as New Mexico, in which the number of Spanish speakers potentially outnumbers that of English speakers (according to census results I viewed a few years back)? These are the questions that I ask myself. Why the intolerance for other languages? Let’s take the driving/safety issue for example. Regarding driving and safety: I agree that safety should come first, which is why I believe that many English-speaking Americans should have their licenses revoked. I make a 1/2 hour commute to and from the university, every day, and I always see someone doing something dangerous. The most interesting part is that the majority of these people are white Americans, native English speakers. I honestly believe that whether the guy in the car next to you speaks English, Spanish or Russian will not change how safe the driver is, and thus how safe you as another driver are. Most signs are universal, and the ones which aren't, are easy to learn, so I find it difficult to comprehend how this sort of thing would make driving more dangerous. On a related note, I have a Canadian friend who speaks minimal German and no Dutch, but was able to rent a car while studying in Germany and took a trip through Germany and the Netherlands. From what I hear, this is not so uncommon for those with international drivers licenses. I guess this should be stopped as well? I agree as much as the next guy that when in Rome, one should do as the Romans do. But the problem stems from the fact that this Rome is made up of immigrants coming from a large number of cultures, and the idea that English should rule supreme here just isn’t justified in my mind, especially since we do not have an official language! Those in support of limiting the drivers tests to English, what would you say about a situation as follows: In my area there is a small Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian enclave, and I hear that there are these groups all across the USA. Now suppose that a 60-something year old man, who is capable of driving a car safely, comes to America as a refugee and cannot pass his drivers test because he does not understand English? If I have enough difficulty learning a foreign language at age 24, then I can only imagine how much trouble it might give an elderly person. To make matters worse, in many parts of the USA, one needs a car to survive. In my area, I need a car, or else I cannot get a job, go to the university, or buy groceries. Outside of the large cities, public transportation just isn’t available. Maybe this is just my political views coming out, but I do not see the harm in having the tests in multiple languages. Sure there would be the initial translation costs, as well as the extra printing costs, but these costs I am sure are quite minimal in the grand scheme of things. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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