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Studying a language to native fluency | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
 meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5967 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 81 of 96 23 October 2009 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Total native fluency is not my goal, in any foreign language. Not because it's absolutely unattainable for anyone, but rather because it would require extensive, lifelong dedication to the one target language I'd wish to perfect, as well as residence in the area where it is used. Even full professors of foreign language with decades of experience list their skills in their acquired tongue as "near-native." (I'm referring to those I knew as as student; many of them have a CV posted online). Sure, I want to get to as high a level as is reasonably possible, but I also have other things I want to do, too.
I have to respectfully disagree that a non-native English speaker/writer cannot surpass the skills of a native. Perhaps not in colloquial expression or in accent, but in grammar, basic mechanics and creativity with words I'm continually surprised by how well many of them can express themselves in English. Often, for example, reading some posts on this forum, I see that a person's first language isn't English, but I wouldn't have known that if I'd had to guess. Also, about screaming in pain only in one's native language: I read something very interesting last night about that. Cognitive language production and non-linguistic vocalizations are handled by separate areas of the brain: upper-level linguistic skills are processed in the human neocortex, while grunting, laughing, sobbing and other nonverbal sounds emerge from subcortical parts of the brain which we share with other animals. So, these sounds may not always be strictly defined as language. Just a few thoughts! Edit: I wrote myself into a small paradox, I think. What I meant about native vs. non-native fluency is that if a person invests him or herself in long-term foreign language learning, especially to a very high level of proficiency, this person will likely do better than a native who speaks/writes well enough but may be uninterested in refining language skills. And I am biased by seeing so much very bad writing--fixing it was my job, after all! I'm thinking too quickly today . . . ! Edited by meramarina on 24 October 2009 at 12:34am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sprachjunge Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 7165 days ago 368 posts - 548 votes Speaks: English*, GermanC2 Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 82 of 96 24 October 2009 at 2:24am | IP Logged | |||||
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"People simply don't understand or respect how deep the knowledge of a native is.
You can learn to express yourself. You can learn to get across any meaning you can think of, but that doesn't mean you have native level fluency. Honestly, it's almost an insult to say you'll be fluent in 10 months. You'll speak it with a certain degree of fluency such that you are very capable, but when you pick up a book written for native adults, I doubt you'll understand everything. Unless you study 6 hours a day for 10 months, you must understand how many idioms, expressions, and vocabulary words there are. You cannot know them all without a lot of study. I think everyone who learns their first second language will realize this. You'll get to a point where you think 'oh yes! I'm so close to native fluency now, not much left to learn!' and then you start to get a rude awakening that everything you know only constitutes the equivalent of a white belt. Until you can express yourself well with extremely accurate grammar and pleasant accent, you don't even have a white belt yet." I just wanted to post this comment again because it is so trenchant. And Buttons, to second Janababe's thoughts, there are plenty of highly educated native English speakers who would still surpass the most sophisticated of non-native speakers. Horror stories about declining standards in the U.S. to the contrary, I have gone to school with many, many people who confirm every day that there are plenty of bright Americans who are equipped to employ their native tongue with flawless precision, thank you very much. And it is not endemic to English. There is simply a depth of vocabulary and ease of usage comprising an educated native's usage that is exceedingly hard to fathom as a concept--let alone attain in a foreign language--unless one puts in the time for decades, just as the native speakers have done. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5585 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 83 of 96 27 October 2009 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I wouldn't say it's unattainable, as anything is possible. However, now that I take everything into consideration, Advanced Fluency is more than enough for my liking. I would be very pleased.
Even though I feel like I learn slowly or I'm not "up to par" with people that have been learning for the same time as I have, I catch myself reading German, Portuguese,or Spanish thinking "Hey, There aren't many other people that can do this..." Then I look at another language that I don't know (like Arabic, Russian, or Japanese) and think "Aw how cool would that be to be able to read/write/speak this?" and I know that there are several members of this board that can do just that. Even a basic fluency is great, grasping 80% of a language is great on my terms, and 95% would be amazing. I guess I'll rethink my goals and aim toward knowing MORE languages. I'm starting to think that this isn't very hard (at least not as hard as I thought it was), I figured that knowing so many would clog up my mind or make everything else in my brain slack off or get lost. Now I'm just learning without even realizing it's in my head. :D -DK1 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| janababe Triglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 5514 days ago 102 posts - 115 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, German | Message 84 of 96 27 October 2009 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
When it's written, you don't know how long it took or if the poster looked up lots of words or phrases. I think that if you compare an intelligent person who's highly educated and into writing but a non-native, you can definitely claim that they will have better skills than a lower educated, not intelligent person who's native. If you compare similar people, the native speakers will always win.
Cool, yep that's interesting. I know a girl who lived abroad for 6 years, then went back home to have her baby. She spoke in the foreign language during the birth, and that was out of habit I suppose. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5967 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 85 of 96 27 October 2009 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yes, that's more or less what I was trying to say, albeit a bit clumsily. I had trouble getting all that written out just right--ironic, considering the subject matter! I see writing by both native and non-natives every day that inspires me to work on my own a little bit harder. I know that there is a wide range of skill levels amongst the speakers/writers of any language. Nothing insulting was intended at all; I simply admire anyone who puts the time and effort into their own language or a foreign one. Edited by meramarina on 27 October 2009 at 5:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| janababe Triglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 5514 days ago 102 posts - 115 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, German | Message 86 of 96 27 October 2009 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Don't worry about that, meramarina, you're cool - I don't think anyone would find that insulting.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6470 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 87 of 96 27 October 2009 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't quite see the point of people wondering if they should study a language up to a near-native level or stop earlier.
For me, near-native fluency in English has not come out of any conscious decision or conscious effort. It just happened when my daily life approached that of a native English speaker (talking a lot in English, reading in English, watching stuff in English, writing papers in English...). By the same token, I hear that native speakers tend to lose their "near-native abilities" if they spend too much time abroad speaking only the other country's language. Their level would best be compared to a fluent non-native speaker then, because they don't get the latest slang or jokes and they need more time to come up with some words; some even develop a foreign accent in their own language. Because of this, it is my opinion that it makes no difference whether or not you plan to study a language up to native fluency or you "stop" earlier and dedicate yourself to another language. If you have a use for the language, near-native fluency will come anyway. If you don't, no amount of vocabulary lists or grammar books or even homework assignments will get you there. I stopped "studying" English 9 years ago, when my level was only C1, maybe not even that. Yet, every year I noticed improvements in my English. My Esperanto is improving on its own, too, and so is my French. The only thing I do for these languages is to find opportunities to write French, because I only had 2 years of formal classes and have barely written any French since then - it has fallen behind. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5585 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 88 of 96 28 October 2009 at 12:40am | IP Logged | |||||
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Sprachprofi, I agree with you, and I'm addicted to German by the way.
It's very difficult to place myself in an enviroment that really throws the language at me. (like your experience with English) So I'm stuck learning on my own, reading anything I can find. In my experience, every German that I've met speaks very very good English, I wouldn't be surprised if some spoke better than I did... and I'm a native. hahah :D 1 person has voted this message useful |
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