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Studying a language to native fluency

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
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reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
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Studies: German

 
 Message 89 of 96
17 April 2010 at 5:48pm | IP Logged 
Sprachprofi wrote:
I don't quite see the point of people wondering if they should study a language up to a near-native level or stop earlier.



They shouldn't wonder too hard :)

Sprachprofi wrote:
By the same token, I hear that native speakers tend to lose their "near-native abilities" if they spend too much time abroad speaking only the other country's language. Their level would best be compared to a fluent non-native speaker then, because they don't get the latest slang or jokes and they need more time to come up with some words; some even develop a foreign accent in their own language.


A native speaker may weaken his native capabilities. He cannot lose "near-native" abilities because he had native abilities from the very beginning :)

It takes maybe a decade to start feeling a bit dazed and confused. If you question such a person about usage you might get strange answers. I would not compare such a person to a fluent non-native speaker even then. It takes a few decades to bust one's native tongue. Most people living abroad still have the "power".


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reineke
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United States
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Studies: German

 
 Message 90 of 96
17 April 2010 at 6:12pm | IP Logged 
meramarina wrote:
Total native fluency is not my goal, in any foreign language. Not because it's absolutely unattainable for anyone, but rather because it would require extensive, lifelong dedication to the one target language I'd wish to perfect, as well as residence in the area where it is used. Even full professors of foreign language with decades of experience list their skills in their acquired tongue as "near-native." (I'm referring to those I knew as as student; many of them have a CV posted online). Sure, I want to get to as high a level as is reasonably possible, but I also have other things I want to do, too.

I have to respectfully disagree that a non-native English speaker/writer cannot surpass the skills of a native. Perhaps not in colloquial expression or in accent, but in grammar, basic mechanics and creativity with words I'm continually surprised by how well many of them can express themselves in English. Often, for example, reading some posts on this forum, I see that a person's first language isn't English, but I wouldn't have known that if I'd had to guess.



This was beautiful, sniff. Many experts think that native fluency is unattainable for most adults. Joseph Conrad's writing is in many ways non-native but he would certainly wipe the floor with most native speakers and their writing. His pronunciation was problematic :)
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s_allard
Triglot
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Canada
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Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 91 of 96
19 April 2010 at 7:38am | IP Logged 
I think people should get over this hang-up about native fluency. Let's face it. If you start a language over the age of 16, your chances of being able to speak like a native are remote.

I do believe, however, that one can learn to write better than natives for the simple reason that writing has to be formally learned even by natives as well. But I think that this is very different from oral proficiency that most of us associate with total native fluency.

Out of curiosity I followed up on the story of Joseph Conrad's mastery of English. I'll quote from the following article: http://home.earthlink.net/~apousada/id4.html

" Conrad was very sensitive about his poor accent and his linguistic limitations. He turned down offers to lecture in embarrassment. In a 1922 letter to Elbridge L. Adams, an American who invited him to speak in the U.S., he explained his refusal: "I am not very anxious to display my accent before a large gathering of people. It might affect them disagreeably" (Najder 1983: 408) . When he did finally read in public in 1923, not even the stenographers were able to record what he said, so quiet was his voice and so strange the pronunciation."

I highly recommend the entire article. It demonstrates very vividly that one can be a great master of a written language and still speak it very poorly. So much for great writing skill and total native fluency.






Edited by s_allard on 19 April 2010 at 9:16pm
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datsunking1
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
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Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French

 
 Message 92 of 96
19 April 2010 at 5:12pm | IP Logged 
I can agree, and it's hard to believe I made this thread so long ago :P

I just want to know them to a very high level, no sense in studying a language to a sub-par level.

Spanish, German, Russian, Italian, Portuguese in that order:D
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Juаn
Senior Member
Colombia
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Speaks: Spanish*

 
 Message 93 of 96
19 April 2010 at 5:54pm | IP Logged 
meramarina wrote:
Total native fluency is not my goal, in any foreign language. Not because it's absolutely unattainable for anyone, but rather because it would require extensive, lifelong dedication to the one target language I'd wish to perfect, as well as residence in the area where it is used.


I don't think I agree with this. I've never been to an English-speaking country, yet I feel as comfortable reading, writing and listening to English as my native tongue, perhaps even more, as I've done the bulk of my readings in that language. My pronunciation would immediately betray me as a foreigner, but that dimension of language concerns me the least and it is serviceable nonetheless. My guess is it would take me weeks -not months- in an immersive environment to take my pronunciation to an optimal level, if that were my goal.

I think the key to language-learning is just one: exposure. The more you read and listen, the better you become at it. And in today's world, this can be accomplished from a distance.

Finally, a "lifetime" of dedication probably isn't a sensible assessment either. 5-6 years of study should take the conscientious student to a very comfortable level in a language not far removed from his or her own. If there is a decisive factor, that would be the quality and breadth of the books the person chooses to read.

Edited by Juаn on 19 April 2010 at 7:57pm
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Solfrid Cristin
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Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
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 Message 94 of 96
19 April 2010 at 7:38pm | IP Logged 
Personally I notice that as I grow older, I lower my ambitions as to my level of profficiency. I learned Spanish and French at the ages of 11 and 14, totally immersed in the countries, as I was living alone in a Spanish and a French family. I learned to speak the languages without accent. At the time, I would have laughed at the idea of learning a language without aspiring to perfection.

I am however now trying to learn Russian, and at this point my ambitions are simply to be understood, and to be able to communicate. I don't care if I have an accent. I don't even care if I'd make a huge amount of grammatical errors. Just learning to speak it at all, and read simple texts would feel like a huge achievement.

As for your question - my honest opinion is that it is not possible to obtain "native fluency" in three languages studying on your own, particularly when you are already an adult. But I see no reason why that should stop you from trying! Let's assume that you only become "very good" at them. Do you realize how big something like that would be? Do you realize how totally amazing and extraordinary you would be, just doing that?
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mike789
Newbie
United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: French

 
 Message 95 of 96
20 April 2010 at 6:07am | IP Logged 
meramarina wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree that a non-native English speaker/writer cannot surpass the skills of a native. Perhaps not in colloquial expression or in accent, but in grammar, basic mechanics and creativity with words I'm continually surprised by how well many of them can express themselves in English. Often, for example, reading some posts on this forum, I see that a person's first language isn't English, but I wouldn't have known that if I'd had to guess.
Keep in mind, though, that in written posts a person has time to pause and think about what they want to say, use any resources they want to help them express their thoughts, and revise it until they're happy with it. And when they're reading posts in a thread before replying they have all the time they want to ponder the meaning. So both reading and writing are not as stringent a test of native-like fluency as listening and speaking.

Edited by mike789 on 20 April 2010 at 6:08am
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slucido
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Spain
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 Message 96 of 96
20 April 2010 at 7:37am | IP Logged 
mike789 wrote:
meramarina wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree that a non-native English speaker/writer cannot surpass the skills of a native. Perhaps not in colloquial expression or in accent, but in grammar, basic mechanics and creativity with words I'm continually surprised by how well many of them can express themselves in English. Often, for example, reading some posts on this forum, I see that a person's first language isn't English, but I wouldn't have known that if I'd had to guess.
Keep in mind, though, that in written posts a person has time to pause and think about what they want to say, use any resources they want to help them express their thoughts, and revise it until they're happy with it. And when they're reading posts in a thread before replying they have all the time they want to ponder the meaning. So both reading and writing are not as stringent a test of native-like fluency as listening and speaking.



And you can use a professional proofreader to correct your texts.






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