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Studying a language to native fluency | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| lachat Triglot Newbie Joined 5563 days ago 23 posts - 26 votes Speaks: English*, Dutch, French Studies: Italian | Message 17 of 96 26 September 2009 at 10:17am | IP Logged | ||
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I have only met a few non native speakers of English who have had a good fluency in English. I know loads of people who speak very good English but when they talk to me or an other native speaker they have problems understanding. I have lived in five countries and been to many more.
I also find that when I hear two non native speakers of English I and other native speakers can not allways understand what one is saying. Edited by lachat on 26 September 2009 at 10:19am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Thatzright Diglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5672 days ago 202 posts - 311 votes  Speaks: Finnish*, English Studies: French, Swedish, German, Russian | Message 18 of 96 26 September 2009 at 10:40am | IP Logged | ||
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I think achieving "native fluency" in any other language than the one you've been speaking since you were a toddler is almost impossible, or is going to take a very long time. I mean, look at Iversen for example, who has learned incredibly many languages to incredibly high levels of fluency and yet would only describe himself as having native fluency in his native Danish. Despite having extensive knowledge of English and being able to discuss completely fluently and 97% of the time without an accent with native English speakers I've met, I wouldn't say I've achieved this "native fluency". I think there's only a certain level you can reach in a language not your "mother language" and by all means that can be incredibly high, but even then I'd imagine there's going to be a difference between that kind of fluency and native fluency.
The point of this post is, I suppose, that in my opinion no matter how good you get in a language and how fluently you can express your thoughts and ideas, it's never going to match up to the abilities to do so of a native. "Native fluency" is practically knowing a language inside out, having grown up with it and around it, being familiar with everything, and even though I've come very far in English, I couldn't imagine achieving that kind of a level in any language. Of course, I'm young and thus possibly foolish, I will obviously try... ; ) Edited by Thatzright on 26 September 2009 at 10:40am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5909 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 19 of 96 26 September 2009 at 10:42am | IP Logged | ||
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I know Bruce, I answered that way on purpose :-) Personally I don't necessarily think 3 is that high a number - a committed student could probably do it in a decade. Still impressive though, obviously!
I can't claim to have reached native-level fluency in any language from self-study, not even English. I went to an international school for the last 3 years of high school, which meant full-on immersion. Even people who weren't particularly good at English that started at the same time as me ended up with a pretty good level of English by the time we graduated, reaching native fluency from there is probably just a matter of correcting one's own mistakes carefully and learning more about the nuances of the language and associated cultures. Here's some of the aspects of how we learned English just from attending that school, which imho would take anyone to advanced knowledge of a language given the right amount of time: - Using the language every day, in situations where you couldn't revert back to your own language (Norwegian was pretty much irrelevant there, with the obvious exception of Norwegian class and talking to Norwegian-speaking friends) - Having your mistakes (spoken or in essays) corrected, and developing the drive to not make any more of those mistakes in the first place - Studying texts aimed at native speakers, including (of course) texts that were not made with the aim of language learning - Learning to speak at a natural speed without fear of error (nobody was reprimanded for making mistakes, simply corrected) - Discussing a variety of subjects in detail - Making yourself go through the difficulty (sometimes) of talking about something in English that you'd only ever discussed or thought about in your native language All those things could be replicated in a non-immersion environment - reading about the topics you're interested in but replacing native language material with the equivalent in your target language, speaking to native speakers (on skype, etc) who will correct you even if it seems a little mean to do so (to get comfortable with speaking fast and to learn how to say the right thing as you go), having your writing corrected by native speakers to learn about your own grammar mistakes so you can stop making them, and teaching yourself to function beyond 'adequately' in any situation that you could handle well in your native language. Read AJATT, he's done it. Liz Edited by Lizzern on 26 September 2009 at 10:47am 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5866 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 20 of 96 26 September 2009 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | ||
I believe there are reasonable numbers of people who have never achieved native fluency in any language. One reason would be to move to a new country at age 10 or so, having not yet reached total fluency, and then maybe move again into a third language. And there are those who have lost native fluency in their native language without gaining native fluency in their current language. I know a few in this second group. One of my Dutch friends has lived in Canada for 35 years, but didn't realise until recently that there were separate words in English for price and prize. In Dutch, the same word is used for both. He also still has a very obvious Dutch accent. Although he still speaks fluent Dutch, it probably is no longer completely native. Are there any Forum members who feel they may be in either of these two groups? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lachat Triglot Newbie Joined 5563 days ago 23 posts - 26 votes Speaks: English*, Dutch, French Studies: Italian | Message 21 of 96 26 September 2009 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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tommus I can relate to that. I often make mistakes when speaking my native English in fact when I fisrt moved to Holland I had no problems. But now my own parents can talk to me and I have to ask them what they mean. I also sometimes find it hard finding a English word when Imspeaking English. When I watch a programme that is Americain I do not allways understand everything. I use to before I moved to Holland.
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| healing332 Senior Member United States Joined 5620 days ago 164 posts - 211 votes | Message 22 of 96 27 September 2009 at 1:23am | IP Logged | ||
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What we have to understand is that Science has proven that there will always be a dominate language ( i read the study) Even in a Bilingual household raised with equal of 2 languages there is still a dominate language that the brain must build on (they showed this on a brain scan)
Think of the bottom brick when building a wall. My Girlfriend is Dainish and no one hears an accent on her in the USA and she only comes here 3 months at a time...many think she is American The only secret of living in another country is that you FINALLY speak!..For me my secret is output everyday i feel it is the critical missing element in language learning Many..many..people have obtained native fluency in a second language...ask them and they will tell you they started speaking The problem is how much you USE the new language. People still speak their mother tongue 98% of the time (even those who know a second language) and then we wonder why language 2 is not as good as language 1..there must be a bottom brick but for many there is an input overload and no output 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5866 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 23 of 96 27 September 2009 at 1:41am | IP Logged | ||
I can believe you, seeing how you now spell "American" and "always"! Seriously, how long have you been in The Netherlands? And have you been 100% immersed in Dutch, with simply the normal exposure to English that typical native-Dutch people have? In other words, how did this happen? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5866 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 24 of 96 27 September 2009 at 2:07am | IP Logged | ||
Yes. I'm sure you are right about that. I know a lot of people who came to Canada long ago (sometimes 50 years or more) as immigrants from non-English-speaking countries. There are now two types; those with no detectable accents, and those with detectable or even strong accents. Almost always, the ones with accents are those with a spouse from the previous language, and who speak the original language at home. Of course, it really is a tremendously good way to retain the original language, but it usually prevents (in this case) speaking English without an accent. I guess that is no big surprise, except to say that to achieve near-native fluency and accent, you really have to be nearly or completely immersed in the new language. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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