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How to get a native accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 9 of 47 12 April 2010 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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Talent deniers... ;)
A talented person does instinctively and without effort what others need to do consciously with sustained effort to reach inferior results. You claim that we can train ourselves to do it naturally and effortlessly; my claim is that no matter how hard you work, it will never be as easy as for the talented ones. And more importantly, the result will never be as impressive. But there is a very simple way to convince everyone that talent is method only -- create a list of things a person needs to do to acquire a near-native accent. When anybody can pick up the list, practice and achieve a near-native accent, I will be proven wrong. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5645 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 10 of 47 12 April 2010 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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Why do you believe they reach inferior results? Ramses who I mentioned earlier describes himself how after speaking at the beginning his accent was terrible and remained terrible for quite a while. He then thought about how he was learning it, changed his approach, spent alot of time and alot of effort and now has a native accent.
Secondly why would the result be any less impressive if they can achieve the same? If one person happens to be naturally inclined towards something, and doesn't need to put in much effort to learn an ability why is it more impressive than if someone else ends up with the same ability after more initial effort? Example: If a building is burning down and there are two people inside in different parts of the building. Two people run in to save them. One isn't afraid and runs in. The other is terrified, has had previous bad experiences with fire but depsite his fears runs in. Both are successful. Who do you have more respect for? The one with the who was more naturally inclined for the task or the one who decided to do it even though it was harder for him? I guess the answer to this question will vary from person to person but as for me I have more respect for the person who decidedly fights for what he wants to achieve even if it seems to be impossible and he doesn't have it easier or have "talent" at the beginning. I didn't say that my list was definitive either, it was just some ideas as I've yet to see someone who has done one of these three and failed. I spent time checking this stuff out because my accent in German is particularly bad and I want to try and work on it during my gap year beginning in May. My ideas and patterns may well be completely wrong they are just ideas but I'm gonna try and find out ;) If people are interested I might make a video blog in German, that way you can see how bad my accent is at the beginning and how far I can improve it. I may fail at getting a native accent but I'm sure it will improve though I'm not gonna give up without a fight ;) I'm busy until the end of May (final school exams!!) but then my gap year in Berlin begins =) And maybe I'm wrong and talent does exist, if I can't manage to get a native accent after working on it for a year then you're probably right but if I don't try then I can never know!!! :D Someone who expresses similar ideas on talent but much more eloquently, logically and with real research is this guy ;) And even more impressively the feats of Michael Jordan who failed to get into his school basketball team. I think talent is an excuse for those who fail that makes them and those who succeed feel good about themselves. If talent is a myth then I am directly responsible for everything I dream of achieving but don't, that's a scary though but I like the challenge :D @buhrahyun I'm no guru just a guy trying to work things out and when I can dedicate myself to it properly after my exams is gonna try things out. But from what I've looked at the best attitude is one where you just love playing around with the sounds for it's own sake, one where you are confident and not embarassed. Though I would highly recommend getting a solid number of hours of listening under your belt first. And again this is all theory I have yet to prove it :P 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5645 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 11 of 47 12 April 2010 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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By the way if anyone is interested in the video blog idea let me know, there's no point making it if no-one will watch it :D You guys will have the once in a life time opportunity to see the rise or fall of WillH ^^
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 12 of 47 12 April 2010 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | ||
No, no, less impressive simply meant less satisfactory or less complete. I implied no gradation of worth. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5645 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 13 of 47 12 April 2010 at 10:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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Sorry for the misinterpretation Arekkusu, I tend to get a bit carried away when people imply that I can't manage something :D
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| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 14 of 47 12 April 2010 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | ||
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Reading that article, it says: "The converse - that high IQ does not ensure greatness - holds as well. This was shown in a study of adult graduates of New York City's Hunter College Elementary School, where [...] the mean IQ was 157 - "genius" territory by any scaling of IQ scores [...]. Though the Hunter graduates were successful and reasonably content with their lives, they had not reached the heights of accomplishment, either individually or as a group, that their IQs might have suggested."
And just what is "accomplishment"? Being "reasonably content with their lives" is hard enough a goal to reach for a huge portion of the population. If being a genius allows that, it's no small feat, I'd say. I've met my share of high IQ people. Understanding the world around you at lightning speed may not be a substitute for hard work, but combining the two allows for achievements one can't dream of without talent. Providing there is such a thing, of course ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ManicGenius Senior Member United States Joined 5481 days ago 288 posts - 420 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, French, Japanese | Message 15 of 47 12 April 2010 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | ||
Some of the happiest people I've ever known were on the poorest and least educated end of the spectrum. Conversely, I know some pretty wealthy, fairly intelligent people who are incredibly unhappy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6011 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 16 of 47 12 April 2010 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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I can't be talented with accents, because I am a rubbish impressionist.
I spent a long time practicing to physically produce certain types of sounds for Hindi, based almost entirely on physical descriptions of the sound. This taught me the full range of voiced vs unvoiced; aspirated vs unaspirated; and dental through alveolar to retroflex for T/D-like sounds, and dental-alveolar-retroflex for N and L, as well as the retroflex R. I spent a lot of time physical practising nasalised vowels too. I can barely speak a word of Hindi, but I sustained the ability to make all these distinctions and it carried through to my Spanish and Gaelic, where the meaningful differences in sound are different from each other and from English, but a significant portion of these differences are within the boundaries of the distinctions I physically learnt for Hindi. My accent is good enough in both Spanish and Gaelic that it fools people into thinking I'm a native speaker from time to time. That is how to learn a native accent. Day in, day out, an hour per day muttering to yourself like a madman. Learn the core physically means of production. Once you've done this, you can start to fine-tune it based on what you hear. Two mountains may look identical from 20 miles away, but when you're standing halfway up one of them, they look very different. Same with language -- the closer you get to the real thing, the more you notice the fine details. This is why it all seems like a blur when we're starting out: we're still standing too far away. Conscious work gets us closer, which is why I reject "natural" methods for beginners (well, that and the statistics that say they don't work very well). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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