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Do you speak it like a native? | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 33 of 58 15 April 2010 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | ||
You are right, sorry. However, since "se rappeler" can be used with "de" before personal pronouns and infinitives, forms like "je m'en rappelle" have become very common on both sides of the Atlantic. But I think we would be agree that prescriptive grammar and real usage differ here. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Olympia Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5981 days ago 195 posts - 244 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Old English, French | Message 34 of 58 15 April 2010 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'll say that I am a native speaker of American English and I did not understand the British English phrase at
all. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gareth Groupie United States Joined 5458 days ago 51 posts - 67 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Cherokee, French | Message 35 of 58 16 April 2010 at 12:22am | IP Logged | ||
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(deleted) I misuderstood the topic Edited by Gareth on 15 June 2010 at 9:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 36 of 58 16 April 2010 at 4:07am | IP Logged | ||
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What is the purpose of this exercise? We all probably agree that understanding an utterance is quite a complex act for all the reasons already stated. Here we are collecting phrases that highlight some very culturally or geographically localized characteristics and ask if people can understand them. There has been some talk of how this kind of material can help to ascertain the level of language skills of learners (C2, native-like, etc,). These phrases can be very interesting, but let's say that we are building a data bank of test materials.
I question the utility of this approach for language assessment purposes. I assume we are interested above all in the ability to communicate effectively in certain situations. More specifically, we concentrate on the mastery of linguistic structures and patterns. Ultimately, what distinguishes a higher level from a lower level is the breadth and the sophistication with which one can use the language in a specific situation. And of course we keep an eye and ear open for mistakes. The danger here is that we can end up testing for other things besides language. Are we implicitly testing for knowledge of history, geography, politics, culture, food, science, literature, etc? Can we make the assumption that someone at the C2 level must be an adult with at least a university degree? Does that mean that a 15 year old student cannot be a C2? Of course, it's difficult at very high levels of mastery of a language to eliminate the cultural component, but we have to be sensitive to these issues when we design tests. So, when I look at the examples we have discussed here, I'm not sure that all are really relevant for demonstrating a satisfactory mastery of the language. One last point. Let's not forget that many native speakers undergo language testing in the education system. Where I live, all junior college students have to write a French or English test to graduate. Every year, large numbers of students fail the exam on the first try. At the university level, future teachers have to write a special French test. About half fail the test on the first try. And these are native speakers who have studied in French for 13 to 15 years. If native speakers have these problems, what about second-language students? Obviously, one assumes that the test criteria are very different, as it should be. But when we get to the top end of the scale, i.e. the C2 level, the testing materials will tend to resemble that used for native speakers. This means that inevitably there is a bias towards higher levels of education. So, we end up testing for education as well as language. Often when I look at some language tests, I say to myself that many native speakers would never be able to pass them. Not only because of cultural or educational content but also because tests tend to emphasize the difficulties and the tricky areas as a way of differentiating the candidates. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 37 of 58 16 April 2010 at 4:12am | IP Logged | ||
I may be wrong, but I believe the purpose was fun. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6151 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 38 of 58 16 April 2010 at 11:14am | IP Logged | ||
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Cowboy is actually a good term for testing native like proficiency, as it also has a third connotation. Tradesmen who produce shoddy work, mainly builders. I think it also refers to unlicensed tradesmen in the US.
A native speaker would understand the following sentence as a joke, I hired these guys to round up the cattle, and it all went wrong. It turned out they were a bunch of cowboys. Perhaps simple linguistic puns are the hardest to grasp, especially those childrens jokes that rely on word play. Edited by DaraghM on 16 April 2010 at 11:18am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| OlafP Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5435 days ago 261 posts - 667 votes Speaks: German*, French, English | Message 39 of 58 16 April 2010 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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Here is another one. The title of an article in a German periodical:
"Ich wollt', ich würd' ägyptischer Präsident" You can read the whole article online if you want. It won't help you with the headline, though. The meaning is straight forward, but what does it refer to? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 40 of 58 16 April 2010 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | ||
Despite all appearances, I do think semantics and etymology are a lot of fun. I'm also very interested in the methodology of language testing which happens to be the subtext in this thread. Far from wanting to be the party pooper, I simply believe that studying phrases for the fun of it is one thing, using these phrases to test language skill is something else. It's for this very reason that I want to suggest to Sprachprofi the following change to the entry for Canadian French. Instead of simply "Explain...", I would suggest: "Explain the origin and meaning of...". Maybe it's being picky, but I think it's much clearer what we are asking for. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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