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English as the universal language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes  Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 161 of 206 20 November 2009 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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UNION OF BALTIC SEA CITIES
Ok this is an organisation to promote friendship and good relations on the Baltic Sea. For environmental and educational projects and the like... Historically there have been plenty of exchanges across this sea and there are many projects to keep this tradition alive. Lately the organisation decided to adopt a hymn... So far so good! Except the hymn is in English! English isn't even SPOKEN to a functional level in many of the organisation's key member areas! Needless to say, there is no English speaking country in the area. However German and Russian, the two largest European languages are spoken or understood by many: Denmark Estonia Finland Germany Latvia Lithuania Poland Russia Sweden. In my opinion: -The hymn can either have a local version in all regional languages... -Or it can have verses in different languages.. -Or, don't use any lyrics at all, but a recognisable melody, like the EU hymn... Yet another example of SENSELESS, IRRITATING and incredibly SILLY over-use of English. Frankly - it makes more sense to do the whole thing in.... POLISH! Silly hymn here, bottom left. http://www.ubc.net/ Edited by cordelia0507 on 20 November 2009 at 1:40pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 162 of 206 20 November 2009 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The only justification I see for this choice of English is that it's equally "offensive" to everyone along the Baltic coast. It's not the native or official language in any of the member states, yet its choice reflects English's current secondary role as a common bridge language between speakers of different communities. Along the Baltic coasts you have three language families represented here: Germanic, Balto-Slavonic, and Finno-Ugric. Mutual intelligibility between the language groups is zero. In fact the intelligibility between modern Baltic and Slavonic languages is zero as well, since Proto-Slavonic broke away from the Balto-Slavonic group about 2000 years ago. Thus you can say that there are four, not three, groups of mutually unintelligible languages.
On the surface it seems senseless, irritating or silly, but the decision to pick English couldn't as bad as you make it (especially when you consider the languages and ethnic groups in this union). The representatives all would have had to agree to this otherwise there wouldn't have been such a hymn in the first place. To be honest, it would make less sense for this organization to put the hymn in Polish even though it's the native language of one of the member states. Polish just doesn't have the reach and let's be honest, how many people along the Baltic coast outside Poland can speak Polish functionally?. Having translations would be a way out, but for one reason or another, the representatives of the Union of Baltic Sea Cities didn't go down that route. I suspect that German and Russian weren't chosen because of recent history, despite the sheer number of speakers for each of these languages. If it bothers you that much, I think that it'd be more effective to let the Union of Baltic Sea Cities know about it, rather than vent to a bunch of us language geeks on HTLAL. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5521 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 163 of 206 20 November 2009 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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So there is a EU hymn now? Scary. There is an interesting article in today's Financial Times:
India losing English advantage to China India is rapidly losing one of its clear economic advantages over China, with the number of Chinese able to speak English on par with its neighbour and rival, says a new study published by the British Council --- I suspect that being "able to speak English" is more generously interpreted in China, but this still shows how deeply ingrained is the idea that English is THE universal language of prosperity and capitalism. Note that they don't even mention WHY it is an advantage to have lots of Englisg "speakers", that is just assumed. Pretty bleak. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Rikyu-san Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5528 days ago 213 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: German, French | Message 164 of 206 20 November 2009 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I would like to ask you a different question:
What would it take for those of us who are critical of English being the universal language to accept it and even embrace it? Perhaps the political, economic, "imperial" situation should change. Perhaps higher education and the development of character and a noble humanity and humaneness would need to be valued by Western societies - valuing the needs of the spirit more than the needs of the economic system but still maintaining or developing some form of sustainable economy, post-financial collapse. Would it make a difference to us if English was used to promote Bach instead of Britney? Your thoughts on this? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 165 of 206 20 November 2009 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ya bet ya'! Get with the programme! ;-) [as some people would say!] How could you not know this? Are you sure you are not an illegal immigrant from Africa? In German http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ll4RspXWyA Hip hop version in English: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY5FD0iTF4Q There are local versions in all languages on Youtube, apart from the Scandinavian (???) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5521 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 166 of 206 20 November 2009 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
I thought that the official song was some symphony by Bach or Mozart, but perhaps that would be too ethno-centric, like having depictions of ACTUAL buildings on the paper money... EDIT: So I was almost right then. But wait: http://akadnews.twoday.net/stories/1000202/ Edited by Gusutafu on 20 November 2009 at 5:05pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 167 of 206 20 November 2009 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, since I have been one of the most vocal critics, I'll respond. I have ALREADY "embraced it" in the sense that I speak it completely fluently since my teens, I usually read in English and I have no issue at all with using English with anybody who approaches me in English... I don't hate it at all, I just don't think it's suitable for the role that it currently fills, as the "lingua franca" of Europe. My problem is that it is that it is the language of USA and the British Empire - none of which have cultures or interests that are particularly well-aligned with those of EU/Europe as a new united continent. The language can't be "reclaimed" from the USA. The US has made it its own, and that's absolutely fine! After all: The US was at one time in the exact same situation! It needed a common language and played with a few.. then settled for English. Also, English can't be re-constructed from scratch to make the spelling and the pronounciation more logical, or remove the hopelessly complicated expressions. Frankly any such tampering would be wrong towards English which in itself is a very charming language. The UK and Ireland (where English is spoken in Europe) are on islands in the far outskirts of Europe. English contains several sounds that don't exist in any European languages and that are hard for many to pronounce. That can't be changed either... So basically, there are too many objections (at least from MY perspective) to fix them.. For that reason I think Europe should switch to an existing conlang, or start a project to construct one that's 100% suitable for the purpose. -------------------- Please note that I am definitely not saying that I hate the UK, the USA or the English language. The point is more that I love Europe, my OWN language, European culture and the idea of a future united, prosperous and peaceful Europe --- free of historical legacies and outside political influence. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5521 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 168 of 206 20 November 2009 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
It sounds like you do have objections to the language itself! What is it then that you mean by "hopelessly complicated expressions"? I am afraid that what you see as undesirable complexities are precisely what makes English such a rich and expressive language. There is also really nothing wrong with the spelling, if you approach it from the right side, from the spoken language. The other way around is hopeless. And you can't really claim that BOTH spelling and pronunciation are illogical. But you wouldn't have to change English as it is spoken by natives, you could introduce a language called RegIng, a regularised form of English. I find that idea disgusting, but it would certainly be easier than constructing a new language. You might object to this because you want the language to be "neutral", but unless you make the words up from scratch and invent some kind of special phonology that is equally alien to speakers of all real languages, no constructed language will be either. Why is that important anyway?
A Europe free of historical legacies would just be a geographical location. The only thing left would be the climate. If you love the European culture, why do you want to be "free" from it? Edited by Gusutafu on 20 November 2009 at 6:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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