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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| zhiguli Senior Member Canada Joined 6441 days ago 176 posts - 221 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Russian, Mandarin | Message 25 of 42 13 March 2010 at 2:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Just what we need, another one of those "If I were dictator" threads where posters imagine some future that will never be, because they are most definitely _not_ world controller. Like it or not, English is the international language for the moment. A few centuries ago it was French, who knows what it will be a few centuries from now.
Well, if _I_ were dictator, I would just force people to learn the classical languages (Latin/Greek for Europe, Persian/Arabic for the Middle East/Central Asia, Sanskrit/Pali for India/Southeast Asia, Classical Chinese for China/Japan/Korea/Vietnam...), that have had a real influence on their languages and could be an actual bridge-builder between related cultures. It would be a lot less divisive than choosing modern languages, with all the negative associations that come with them (Russian for Eastern Europe? Are you serious?) Then again, classical languages aren't entirely free of these associations either (especially religious - I can't imagine Arabic would fly with a lot of secular people in Turkey), so never mind. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| stout Senior Member Ireland Joined 5371 days ago 108 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 26 of 42 13 March 2010 at 2:32am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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As for lingua francas in this world English is obviously top dog.If a Dutchman and
a Scandinavian speak to each other it will hardly be in French or German or their mother tongues,they almost invariably speak English to each other.If German became more popular I hardly think that the Dutch and Scandinavians would did ditch and embrace as their second language. As for German-speakers.I know an Austrian who visits the Netherlands fairly often and he always speaks English to Dutch people and never German for fear of offence and fear of hostility.He feels it's more polite and safer to speak English in the NL rather than speaking his mother tongue of German. As in Eastern Europe.English gaining ground as the lingua franca.The younger generation of Poles and Hungarians speak English their lingua franca and not German or certainly not Russian.The older generation of Eastern Europe most probably use German as their lingua franca. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| stout Senior Member Ireland Joined 5371 days ago 108 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 27 of 42 13 March 2010 at 2:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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| stout Senior Member Ireland Joined 5371 days ago 108 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 28 of 42 13 March 2010 at 2:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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As for lingua francas in this world English is obviously top dog.If a Dutchman and
a Scandinavian speak to each other it will hardly be in French or German or their mother tongues,they would almost invariably speak English to each other.If German did become more popular I hardly think that the Dutch and Scandinavians would did ditch English as their 2nd language and embrace German as their second language. As for German-speakers.I know an Austrian who visits the Netherlands fairly often and he always speaks English to Dutch people and never German for fear of offence and fear of hostility.He feels it's more polite and safer to speak English in the NL rather than speaking his mother tongue of German. As in Eastern Europe.English is gaining ground as the lingua franca.The younger generation of Poles and Hungarians speak English their lingua franca and not German or certainly not Russian.The older generation of Eastern Europe most probably use German as their lingua franca. As for the Pan-Slavic conspirisy nearly all Poles would not been dead speaking Russian.Since the fall of Communism most Poles have embraced English as their 2nd language.In most of South America,Central America,Mexico and many parts of the US Spanish is the lingua franca and is the 2nd language of most Americans. As for French,well French is my 2nd language and it would be my lingua franca say for example when speaking with a Portugese hotelier or an Italian waiter in French-speaking Switzerland.If I was in France it would be my ligua franca say with an Algerian or Morrocan shopkeeper or with a Lebanese hotelier in Paris. French is the lingua franca in many parts of the world second only to English. French is the lingua franca in many parts of Africa,widely spoken in Western Europe i.e:France,Belgium,Switzerland and Luxembourg and is a lingua franca to a certain extent in Spain and Italy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 29 of 42 13 March 2010 at 5:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
This idea ignores what is actually happening. Most university students in Eastern Europe study in their own countries and apply (if their grades are high enough) to participate in student exchange programs all over Europe. This is done partially because of the known party-like atmosphere of the exchange programs (especially Erasmus) and because studying abroad is really treated by them as a way to see for themselves what goes on beyond the borders of their home country. Because of the rather wide choice of exchange programs available to eligible European students, Russian is hardly the only possible language of instruction for them and is definitely not a necessity nor always considered as practical for their future plans. I personally count among my friends Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, and Romanians who have studied or are studying for a term or two in Western Europe. Not only has English figured prominently in these programs (especially true when having to socialize/party with a diverse body of Erasmus students), but these friends also learned / or are learning to fluency at least one of the "major" Western European languages (i.e. Spanish, Italian, French, German) or even the occasional "minor" one (e.g. Danish, Dutch, Norwegian) where applicable or necessary. My friends who have graduated after such exchanges are back in their home countries or are working somewhere in Western Europe in anywhere from humble hostels to multinational companies or Western European banks. Basically Eastern European university students are voting with their feet and do the exchange terms as they see fit. They have tended more often than not to end up in Western European environments rather than a Russian one. I can recall only one of my Eastern European friends (a Pole) who had to learn and use Russian because of some kind of exchange in the former USSR. Even then it was his second exchange since he had also done an exchange at a German university (I say former USSR here because he did this exchange in eastern Ukraine where Russian was the language of instruction and is still the de facto language anyway). The idea about ease or speed for Eastern Europeans to learn Russian rather than English for educational advancement also ignores that Eastern Europe is NOT a monolith of Slavs (think Hungarians, Romanians, Balts etc.) who could get the "Slavic discount" afforded when dealing with Russian. This may be rhetorical, but do you honestly believe that, for example, my Slovak friend who: 1) studied in Slovakia 2) did an exchange in Holland 3) is currently fluent in Slovak, Czech, English, Spanish, German, and Dutch 4) and now works for Imperial Oil in Prague, Czech Republic ...is missing out because she didn't "see the light" as you would have liked by studying Russian?
By the way, one says "moot point" rather than "mute point". The latter means something different, if at all, but I digress... Perhaps you are right. That is why instead of those "minor" Slavonic languages in addition to your favored choice of a "major" language in Russian, Eastern Europeans outside the former USSR have effectively settled on English as a broad lingua franca, with other languages acting as "micro-regional" second languages as necessary (e.g. Italian in western Croatia; German in areas bordering Austria and Germany). On one hand you acknowledge that English, French or Latin get/got big boosts toward being a lingua franca when associated with some kind of political, economic, military or perceived cultural dominance/eminence. Knowing that, how then could Russian as an Eastern European lingua franca fit today when you see that: 1) Russia doesn't have the same status as it had when being the main part of the USSR 2) When you see that most Eastern European states are current or potential members of the EU? Doesn't this suggest to you that Eastern Europeans are working more at strengthening ties away from Russia, and feel that the opportunity cost of orienting instead toward Russian or Russia would be too high? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 30 of 42 13 March 2010 at 11:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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All these comments about Eastern Europeans hating Russian are largely unfounded.
There are probably a few who still have a thorn in their side and can't distinguish between a language and an ideology they did not like. Most probably don't care about it at all and are too busy trying to learn English. But in my Russian studies I have found that most of the SERIOUS students of Russian are Polish, Serb, Croatian, Bulgarian etc. We just don't encounter these people on this particular forum because they do not choose an English-language forum. But they are definitely out there, there are lots of them, and they pick up Russian three times faster than me. (However obviously they were forced to prioritise English in most cases; not an 'optional' language in this world. So Russian is the second foreign language for them, not the first.) These people are smart enough to spot a language that is of the same language family as their own and therefore faster for them to learn, plus gives them access to an enormous area and 350 mil. speakers at least, not to mention a market that can only expand. If you like to live in the past, watch an old Hollywood spy movie or pick-up an old Soviet movie.... But don't mix up a useful and interesting language with an ideology that is 20 years out of date from a European perspective. You might as well say that you won't study English because you dislike British or US imperialism, Spanish because Franco was an insular dictator or French because Napoleon terrorised Europe... Not to mention what you might say about German, Chinese.... 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| John Smith Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6042 days ago 396 posts - 542 votes Speaks: English*, Czech*, Spanish Studies: German | Message 31 of 42 13 March 2010 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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^^ Don't tell an Eastern European how he and his family feel about Russian.
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| John Smith Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6042 days ago 396 posts - 542 votes Speaks: English*, Czech*, Spanish Studies: German | Message 32 of 42 13 March 2010 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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A lingua franca should be neutral. A mix of different languages. The grammar should be simple too. Wait a second. We've already got a language like that. English. A Germanic/Romance hybrid with a simplified grammar.
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