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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5644 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 1 of 30 21 April 2010 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Do anyone else use "they" as a singular personal pronoun? I've done this for ages though I don't know if this is even correct usage or a standard mistake; I might just be special ^^
For example: My friend was walking past me. They turned round and said "BOO!" I'm pretty sure this is wrong, and always get a voice in my head telling me not to use when I write haha but I have no idea where I got this from, why I do it, or why I get the feeling it's wrong! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| lynxrunner Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States crittercryptics.com Joined 5921 days ago 361 posts - 461 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish*, French Studies: Russian, Swedish, Haitian Creole | Message 2 of 30 21 April 2010 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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This is a natural thing. It's called "singular they" and it has been used in English for centuries. It's used mainly to refer to someone with an unknown gender. It's usually used like this:
"A student must read their book." Most style guides reccomend against it (much to my chagrin, what with singular they just being so useful). I definitely use it. I use it like "Someone's at the door; could you get it for them?" if I don't know who is at the door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-th ey-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/ http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-onlanguage- t.html
Can you tell that I'm really fond of singular they? ;) It's just so darn useful. Edited by lynxrunner on 21 April 2010 at 9:06pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5644 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 3 of 30 21 April 2010 at 9:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thank you!! Now I know my English isn't just messed up :D
I guess maybe I've been corrected for writing it or I just haven't read it used like that and that's why I get the voice in my head telling me not to ^^ 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6893 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 4 of 30 21 April 2010 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am a big fan of the singular "they" too, because it fills a purpose, and I use it often even in formal writing. But I'm surprised you should use it about your friend. That feels rather odd from my non-native perspective. It's not as if their gender is unknown to you. Edited by Hencke on 22 April 2010 at 1:13pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5644 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 5 of 30 21 April 2010 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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The example was meant to be a narrative, so the person I'm talking to wouldn't know the gender of my friend. I could say he/she too but I think at least that you can say they there too.
Although my example was slightly forced and my ideas on this topic are pretty vague which is why I posted in the first place ^^ 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 6 of 30 21 April 2010 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's not really "wrong" nor is it really "right". The use of "they" as a singular pronoun has arisen because users wanted to refer to a subject but were either unsure about the gender or did not want to reveal the subject's gender. Various alternatives in addition to singular "they" have also existed such as "s/he", "he/she" or have been proposed such as "en" or "thon".
For my part I don't use "they", "them" or "their(s)" as singular pronouns. If I'm talking about someone whose gender I know, then I will use "he" or "she" as appropriate. If I'm talking about someone whose gender I do not know, then I will use "one", "he/she" or sometimes even reformulate the sentence into one in the plural. The reason "they", "them" and "their" give the "wrong" feeling for some users is because a plural subject takes them as their only pronouns (as I have just demonstrated). There tends to be a certain resistance to mixing plural and singular forms or generalizing plural pronouns/conjugations to the singular and vice-versa (cf. non-standard "they is" vs. "they are") regardless of political correctness or sociolinguistic aspects. I also suspect that my exposure to several languages which do not use a plural pronoun as a gender-neutral singular one (i.e. they maintain visual and sonic distinction between the singular and plural 3rd person pronouns) causes me to avoid this extension of "they"/"them"/"their" in English regardless of whether the other language has grammatical gender unlike English (e.g. French, Slovak) or lacks it like English (e.g. Finnish, Hungarian) ex. - French: il = he; elle = she; ils = they (masc. or fem. + 1 masc.); elles = they (fem.) - Slovak: on = he; ona = she; ono = it; oni = they (masc. animate); ony = they (masc. inanimate, fem., neut.) - Finnish: hän = he/she; se = it; he = they (people); ne = they (everything else) - Hungarian: ő = he/she/it; ők = they There's a related discussion about gender-neutral pronouns here... how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1785 9&PN=1&TPN=1 ...while Wikipedia has a an article about the subject: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5644 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 7 of 30 21 April 2010 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah I had the influence from German and started saying "one" without thinking about it, but where I live saying "one" sounds incredibly pompous whereas "they" sounds more normal so I stuck with it.
I usually don't analyse my English but after German brought me to say "one", I consciously looked for an alternative and said "they" but if felt wrong when I used it in an essay ^^ Thank you everyone for all the explanations! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| mashmusic11235 Groupie United States Joined 5498 days ago 85 posts - 122 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Cantonese | Message 8 of 30 21 April 2010 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am actually NOT a fan of singular 'it'. Maybe I just like logical languages, but I think that English should have a singular, neuter, animate pronoun. Something to go along with 'he' and 'she' (that's not 'it', because 'it' refers to things, not people).
1 person has voted this message useful |
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