Finnish Language Grammar Thread (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Finnish Language Grammar Thread
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Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages

16 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

chirel
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Message 9 of 16

31 May 2010 at 2:51pm | IP Logged

Aquila123 wrote:

The suffixe -u- is used in many verbs to denote passive meaning or reflexie meaning and
it is often combined with tta, before or after or both making -utta-, -ttu- or uttu

As far as I know many of these are real words figuring in Finnish dictionaries, but could all be derived from a
basic verb, examples with the verb näkyä- to see:

näke = to see¨(infinitie nähdä)

näke + ttä = näettä - to make someone see (infinitie näettää)

näke + y = näky - to be seen, to be visible, to seem (infinitie näkyä)

näky + ttä = näyttä - to nake something be seen, to show (infinitive näyttää)

näyttä + y = näytty - to show oneself? (infinitie näyttyä)

Näettää is not a word. If it was it would mean make/force someone to see.
Näyttyä is also not a verb. The correct form for show one-self is näyttäytyä.

Sorry, I'm in a hurry now, have to stop here.

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GREGORG4000
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Message 10 of 16

02 June 2010 at 10:25pm | IP Logged

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untranslatability#Grammar
vetää > vedättää > vedätyttää > vedätätyttää

Wow. Out of curiosity, could a Finnish speaker please provide the next link in the chain if it exists? : D

http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/node/282928
Some discussion about it

Edited by GREGORG4000 on 02 June 2010 at 10:32pm
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Thatzright
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Message 11 of 16

02 June 2010 at 10:44pm | IP Logged

I'm almost certain vedätytätyttää would be possible, but I don't dare to even begin to think what it could essentially mean.

Sahalaitoksen hankkija vedätätyttää hakkuun työnjohtajalla tukkikuorman metsästä.

On one site, the next step is claimed to be:
Sahalaitoksen johtaja vedätytätyttää hankkijallaan tukkikuorman metsästä.

I'm sure that this is the furthest that it can go, but even vedätytätyttää only returns two results on Google so I don't know if it's an actual word or not.

Edited by Thatzright on 02 June 2010 at 10:46pm
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chirel
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Message 12 of 16

03 June 2010 at 9:11am | IP Logged

@GREGOR4000 Your link was very interesting. And like someone there mentioned there is a limit how far you can
take the prosess, and the limit is different for different verbs.
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Marikki
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Message 13 of 16

03 June 2010 at 6:12pm | IP Logged

GREGORG4000 wrote:

"heitättää" also looks like it works as "to make throw".

According to Wiktionary, "juoksettaa" means "to curdle", so "juoksuttaa" might be an irregular because "juoksettaa" is taken up already.

It looks like almost always it's the imperative form of the verb, plus -ttaa/-ttää.
(Or, I guess, the stem of the verb plus -ttaa/-ttää, then creating consonant graduation on the stem)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_factitive_ver bs
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_causative_ver bs

Yes, I think too that in many or even most cases the stem could be found from the imperative form of the verb. Sometimes the stem can be seen in the corresponding noun (juosta, maalata - juoksu, maalaus - juoksuttaa,maalauttaa).

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Marikki
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Message 14 of 16

03 June 2010 at 7:05pm | IP Logged

Aquila123 wrote:

How to exactly make causative verbs in Finnish.

Several examples of causative Finnish verbs were exemplified in another thread, deried by one or more suffixes.

The question we discuss is the difference between the metods of derivation - are there any difference in meaning.

I refere to these examples you gave in a former rsponse:

heittää - heitätyttää (to throw - to make throw) Seems to be deried form heittä + tty + ttä + ä

juosta - juoksuttaa (to run - to make run) Seems to be from joukse + u + tta + a

tehdä - teettää (to do - to make do) Seems to be from teke + ttä + ä

(I listed the stems and suffixes in their fullest apophonical form for simplicity in my tentative interpretations)

As far as I know -u- is a passive/refexive suffix, -ttu- is the past passive participle and tta is the simple factitive/causative suffixe

I think I saw the -utu- suffixe also in your examples, but I could not find it back, but you have explained well about that suffixe in combination with a causative suffixe.

This subject is very difficult to me since I'm not a linguist but I found a Finnish online grammar where this subject is covered. Unfortunately it is in Finnish and full of linguistic terminology (that might be ok for you..to me it is very difficult) but you can see some examples of words there and how finnish linguists see stems and suffixes.

http://kaino.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=313

http://kaino.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=325

Edited by Marikki on 03 June 2010 at 7:10pm
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chirel
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Message 15 of 16

03 June 2010 at 7:27pm | IP Logged

Marikki wrote:

http://kaino.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=313

http://kaino.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=325

This grammar is considered very difficult even by students of Finnish linguistics. Also it is descriptive, meaning
it only states all the different ways Finnish language is used, it doesn't say which forms are considered correct or
good Finnish. The writers have also made many new interpretations about Finnish grammar, and most of it is just
so complicated that reading it might cause a severe head-ache.

I found this list on the internet:
http://www.infopankki.fi/fi-fi/suomen_kielta_internetissa/
It lists different resources for people who are learning Finnish. Some ot the sites are in Finnish, some are in
English and at least one had also German as an option. I didn't check all of them, so it would be nice to hear if
they are usefull or not, if someone does use them.
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Marikki
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Message 16 of 16

03 June 2010 at 8:28pm | IP Logged

chirel wrote:

Marikki wrote:

http://kaino.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=313

http://kaino.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=325

Thank you Chirel for pointing out all these facts. I'm relieved to hear that also more competent readers than I find that grammar site difficult.

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