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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5556 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 17 of 38 18 February 2010 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I like the ideas in your website regarding "intimite connectors" and "language glue". I came to pretty much the same conclusion a while back, and now include a strong focus on "glue words and phrases" during the creative writing and interactive dialogue phase of my language study programme. I believe this is something that Moses McCormick (laoshu505000) also advocates in his FLR language method. As already mentioned in this thread, the idea of "fluency" originates from the Latin word for "flowing", and also evokes a further sense of "abundance". I find that every dialect or major accent seems to have its own little stream or current, and by listening to and conversing with people with very different accents, you gain greater and greater access to the grand waterways of your target language. You can be fluent and seaworthy in English for example, but have no idea what's going on in a film like "Trainspotting" or the tv comedy "Rab C Nesbitt", not alone be able to chat fluently with locals in a local Glaswegian pub. When someone is able to express themself easily in speaking or writing at length, i.e. ideas flowing easily and abundantly, then they're fluent at paddling in one particular idiolect. This means they are now able to think comfortably in a language, where their own particular stream of thoughts flow freely without too many obstacles caused by linguistic gaps in their knowledge getting in the way. And if a listener or reader also finds the conversation comfortable and easy to understand, without any real need for straining, then dialogue can be considered "fluent" too and they paddle together. In this case it certainly helps if the conversation is relatively clear and coherent, and the grammar, vocabulary, phrasing and "language glue" that sticks it all together is natural and relatively accurate. It also helps when any errors you do make resemble native-like errors, and dialogue is accompanied by corresponding native gestures and intonation. This is why I'm a great fan of developing good body language and knowledge of a culture, as well as introducing idiomatic expressions and "deliberate errors" in conversation later on in my studies (simply to show I'm human), always striving of course for native intonation and flow along the way :) Edited by Teango on 18 February 2010 at 1:09pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 18 of 38 18 February 2010 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I would like to revisit the CEFR for languages I mentioned in a previous post because I think it has enormous
implications for this thread and for all of us interested in polyglottery. The fundamental principle behind the development of the CEFR was the need for a standardized pan-European model for the evaluation of language proficiency for educational and professional purposes. This way we can compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. Note the presence of the criteria Spoken Interaction. This is a very important addition to the traditional four skills: reading, writing, understanding and speaking. This welcome addition speaks to the to essence of conversational fluency and recognizes the importance of speaking as a social skill. Although I have proposed the idea of being comfortable in a language as subjective criterion for defining fluency, it is not a substitute for an objective and measurable criterion based on Spoken Production and Spoken Interaction. One of the implications of the CEFR model will be the move to a rating system for language learning materials. Instead of the vague blanket terms Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced, I think we will start seeing materials labeled with references to the CEFR model so that users know what specific skill sets are addressed. Another implication of the CEFR model is the redefinition of polyglottery. Some readers may have already detected my skepticism about the professed ability of certain people to speak a large number of languages. But let me first say that I recognize and admire the objective ability to master certain aspects of many languages. I would certainly not be able to make a Youtube video in which I could cycle through eight languages, and I respect those who can. But isn't there more to "knowing" a language than being able to speak to a webcam? This is where the CEFR model comes in. It defines five skills and six levels of proficiency. Now we can describe polyglottery with reference to that model and introduce the necessary nuances. I think most polyglots like many of us in this forum are painfully aware of their inadequacies in their various languages. Most people would consider my Spanish excellent, but I know it could be better in certain areas. I can speak it quite well, but my writing skill sucks. The reason I'm somewhat skeptical of the ability to master many languages equally (I emphasize the word "equally") is simply the enormity of the undertaking. When I think what it takes to attain a C2 level across the board in one foreign language, I can't imagine what it would take to achieve and maintain those results in four or five languages. That said, I do believe it is possible to master certain skills in many languages. As I said earlier, those Youtube talking heads demonstrate great ability in one skill set (Spoken Production). But they say nothing about the other skills. Imagine for example that instead of talking to the camera, these polyglots would have true conversations with native speakers of each of the languages. I'm not questioning their ability to do so. I just think it would show a different skill. Edited by s_allard on 18 February 2010 at 4:11pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5881 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 19 of 38 18 February 2010 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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"the enormity of the undertaking"
Well said. My point exactly. After 4 years and massive time spent in the language every single day, my Spanish too is very good. But I also recognize how much more I need to improve and where I want it to be. There isn't room for anything else. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5585 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 20 of 38 18 February 2010 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I'm there with you. I can understand a large portion of what I hear and read, but constructing it fast enough to respond is what I have trouble with...(because of the lack of people to talk to.) I can read magazines and novels with a pretty good fluency. It's the colloquial slang and tv that I have a little trouble with. I really want to go to a country so I can improve. My level would skyrocket. :) No matter how high my fluency goes...there's always more to learn, it's a never ending job. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| victor-osorio Diglot Groupie Venezuela Joined 5432 days ago 73 posts - 129 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian | Message 21 of 38 18 February 2010 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I agree with those who stand for quality instead of quantity. I want to be a Spanish
teacher somewhere sooner but apart from that I would like to manage the major european language to an extent in which I could not only pretend to be fluent with the use of connectors, but in which I could think with fluency, understand what I'm being told without problems and handling the language as if it was my own body (I know that seems exaggerated, but I think real polyglots can do so). That's why I only expect to learn as little as 5 languages: English, Italian, French, German and Japanese. I recon that it will take me about five years for each language to grasp an intermediate level, then I will improve them the rest of my life. The point here is that if an Italian, for example, tells me "someone told me you speak Italian" I would answer him with the same ease a native speaker of that language would show, even if I still have an accent (which I'll probably have). Vote for the CEFR as a way to measure the real profiency of a speaker, as well. By the way, does someone know if the CEFR degree that's sometimes shown in our Languages spoken list, right below our usernames, it's really based on CEFR tests results or if each user can decide to put himself one of those marks? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Johntm Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5422 days ago 616 posts - 725 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 22 of 38 18 February 2010 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I know what you mean when you say you don't want to learn a lot of languages and not be good in them. That list of mine is long, and I probably will decide not to go after some, but I want close to native fluency in Spanish, and advanced fluency in a couple of others, maybe Korean, Italian, and German. THe rest I'd like to study a little, maybe get to a small degree of fluency, but not much. P.S. Iversen isn't the only nonnative English speaker on here that uses words that I don't really know :( 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Johntm Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5422 days ago 616 posts - 725 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 23 of 38 18 February 2010 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
What country do you think you would go to? Me and my parents (or my parents and I, whatever :P) are probably going on a cruise this summer, and I was extremely excited when one we were looking at stopped in Mexico for a day. I hope my Spanish will be somewhat decent by then... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Felidae Diglot Newbie BrazilRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5407 days ago 28 posts - 34 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English Studies: French | Message 24 of 38 18 February 2010 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Being confident is too relative.
I like speaking my native language in a way people with little education consider pedantic (although I switch to a slangy and very dialectal way when talking to them), and I have social anxiety, so it's hard to communicate even in my language. I've seen people who are confident speaking English or French, but keep saying moronic sentences like there was no tomorrow. Even if I knew I could perfectly execute a task speaking perfect English with almost perfect pronunciation, it took me a long time to become confident. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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