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English, Conlang, and world language | ||
Tags: Lingua franca | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Paskwc Pentaglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5677 days ago 450 posts - 624 votes  Speaks: Hindi, Urdu*, Arabic (Levantine), French, English Studies: Persian, Spanish | Message 1 of 17 02 March 2010 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm sure this discussion is one of those perennial ones in which nothing new is ever
agreed upon and in which old solitudes are constantly resurrected. This doesn't discourage me; at the least, discussions of this sort allow us to wax poetic and maybe gather a few votes ;). I'd like this thread to be a derivative of the English vs. Conlang theme in the "Why not just a Scandinavian language?" thread. I'd have posted this there, but doing so would have derailed the discussion's flow. Grudgingly or not, I think many of us accept the utilitarian push for a single world language; we may prefer a multilingual world, but at the end of the day, we recognize the efficiency of a single language. Many of us are happy with English being that world language. Many of us want a Conlang to be that world language. Some of us want our native languages to be that world language. Still, some Anglophones want English to remain their language. I believe English's place as the world's language is well established and should be further entrenched. As inconvenient as English may be for the individual learner, there is an entire world of people using English as their second language. To push Esperanto, Mandarin, or Spanish onto them doesn't make sense. In the Scandinavian thread, Cordelia delivered a solid argument for Esperanto or another neutral replacement. In doing so, she was partly motivated (as far as I can speak on her behalf) by the beliefs that most non-native speakers of English speak "survival English" and that the thought of a Swede and Pole speaking to each other in the language of a distant people was odd. Personally, I don't see these as problems. Despite the simplicity of Esperanto, I suspect the people who only learn English to a survival will only learn Esperanto to a survival level. Likewise, English isn't solely the language of a distant America, but also that of a neighbourly UK. In fact, if driving on land, the distances from Stockholm to Warsaw and Stockholm to London are virtually the same. What's more, I fear Esperanto is a lifeless language. A language without any real body of literature, music, history, postulations, idioms, or metaphors seems like a dreadful thing. If the language is itself constructed solely to allow survival language skill, how does anyone go beyond that in any significant way? Where would the world go to immerse itself in Esperanto? As a product of an interlingual/ intercultural marriage, I wonder - perhaps because it is so alien, or perhaps because there are legitimate constraints within Esperanto - if the circumstances of my birth would have been possible had my parents studied Esperanto and not English. Would there have been a sufficient reservoir of expression and form to draw upon? I'm not sure. Of course, there are others who wish their native language was the world's second language. It would make their lives much easier and is a legitimate aim. However, I'm sure most people (particularly people who don't enjoy languages) would resist a challenger to English; the tension and demands of the contest and transitionary stages would make life difficult. Finally, I've sometimes heard Anglophones wish for English to remain theirs. This may stem from a dislike of heavy foreign accents, a desire to have private conversations, or perhaps some other place. Any thoughts? Edited by Paskwc on 02 March 2010 at 11:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6783 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 2 of 17 02 March 2010 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, not that many. But on your last point - not that I've really met such people, but - it occurs to me that even for people who want to "keep English to themselves", it is a major service to them English being so widespread. It is the #1 language of the internet (correct me if I'm wrong), it's the language you get with every manual for a home appliance/piece of equipment, it's the language of an enormous amount of cultural output (particularly applicable to UK vs US tensions and such). So despite their supposed protectiveness, they are able to make do with English pretty much 100%, which isn't to take for granted for speakers of most other languages. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5453 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 3 of 17 02 March 2010 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
Too late. They should have thought of that before colonizing half the world. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| robsolete Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5385 days ago 191 posts - 428 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 4 of 17 03 March 2010 at 12:14am | IP Logged | |||||
Nice one. As a native Anglophone, my only fears are these: English, in becoming internationalized, might feel diluted and generic. The volume of literature and culture is huge, so you can't complain about that, but it made the world feel a lot more boring when I was in rural India and couldn't go 500m without an English advertisement being shoved in my face. Not that developing countries should sacrifice globalization for quaintness, either. I'm kind of divided on it. I can't complain about the convenience. But something about having my native tongue inescapably shoved in my face sort of makes it difficult to feel like I'm on a real journey. Besides, everyone always wants to practice their English with you, so it's surprisingly frustrating to have a real language immersion. Sometimes I would (poorly) pretend to be Spanish when I just wanted a chance to practice Kannada. The privacy issue is pretty true, although English vocabulary is pretty extensive so unless I'm in the presence of highly-educated folks I can sometimes "talk over" the local fluency to keep some meanings private. This all depends on where you are, though. Easier to do this in rural India than Western Europe. I don't mind the accents, I actually find them fascinating and one of the best parts of English--you get to hear your own language pronounced a thousand different ways. I guess my last thought is this: if everyone eventually speaks English, then it will bring all sorts of great new perspectives to the English cultural sphere. But, I feel that Anglophone culture--especially literary--will start to lose a lot of its distinctive identity. Shakespeare, Milton, Joyce, and Melville will all be relegated to dusty throwbacks as English will become not language, but rather a tool. And while everyone knows that a hammer is useful, people rarely fall in love with it. My "ideal" proposal would be to develop a sort of ISE (International Simplified English), which would split off from the literary language proper. Do some orthographic cleanup (mostly the vowels) and grammatical simplification so that it would be easier to learn for others yet still easily legible to those who know "literary" English. After learning ISE there'd be nothing to stop foreign learners from going on to study "literary" English if they felt passionate about it. So nobody would lose out on the investment they've made in English, new learners would have an easier go of it, everyone would understand each other better, and the literary Angolosphere would retain some of its charm and mystique. Edited by robsolete on 03 March 2010 at 12:23am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Paskwc Pentaglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5677 days ago 450 posts - 624 votes Speaks: Hindi, Urdu*, Arabic (Levantine), French, English Studies: Persian, Spanish | Message 5 of 17 03 March 2010 at 12:20am | IP Logged | |||||
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On the topic of English natives, I think they deserve a modicum of sympathy.
Despite the advantages of effortless communication in the world's premier language, the dominance of English must have some sort of damaging psychological effect. There's probably a huge sense of vulnerability stemming from the fact that the moment they misspeak, they world instantly recognizes it, pounces upon them, and then casts judgement. EDIT: I MEANT TO SAY I EMPATHIZE WITH English SPEAKERS. I'VE FIXED THIS NOW. Edited by Paskwc on 03 March 2010 at 8:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Paskwc Pentaglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5677 days ago 450 posts - 624 votes Speaks: Hindi, Urdu*, Arabic (Levantine), French, English Studies: Persian, Spanish | Message 6 of 17 03 March 2010 at 12:28am | IP Logged | |||||
I hadn't thought about this. I can see it already applying to Esperanto, but I think English still has life in it. The idea of English as a tool is not one I hope for. However, Anglophones can still take comfort in Hollywood's primacy. Edited by Paskwc on 03 March 2010 at 12:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Johntm Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5422 days ago 616 posts - 725 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 7 of 17 03 March 2010 at 6:43am | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't really want a global language, I'd rather have billions of people speaking multiple languages. I don't want English to become too much of a "lingua franca" because as another poster said, it'd feel diluted and almost distant. I remember another thread, I believed titled "Language comradery" or something, and some people said they felt a special bond to speakers of their native language (especially if they meet one when abroad). I wouldn't feel this with English. Maybe if they were from the same part of the US as me, but not because they are a native Anglophone.
I'm definitely against a conlang being lingua franca, it's not something against conlangs, just auxlangs. Conlangs are awesome, and I hope to make one one day. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| BartoG Diglot Senior Member United States confession Joined 5447 days ago 292 posts - 818 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Italian, Spanish, Latin, Uzbek | Message 8 of 17 03 March 2010 at 7:19am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm inclined not to worry too much about any of this. With respect to the dilution of Shakespeare and Milton's English, it has already happened, not due to English's internationalization, but simply due to it's being reworked over time. We notice today how non-natives are doing strange and peculiar things to the language and no one cares as long as the meaning is gotten across, but this is actually as it has been for quite some time, just with local and regional dialects. "Proper English" is a moving target because even the educated disagree about proper usage and for every person who wants to save the language, there's another who thinks it's great to play games with and see how far you can stretch it before it breaks. There's an old notion about "ce qui n'est pas logique n'est pas français," but with English you can do anything, as writers from Lewis Carrol to ee cummings have shown. So, in fifty years, you'll have to pay even closer attention to the notes to follow Shakespeare, never mind Chaucer. But on the other hand, we'll still have a vehicle for communicating vibrantly and imaginatively about the world we are living in then, and the grammar police can't stop us!
With respect to international languages: I seem to recall the question once being raised of how French had suddenly become the universal language of the educated and the powerful. They even held an essay contest about it. The "ce qui n'est pas logique..." bit came from the winning essay. French may remain logical, but it's no longer universal. The thing about international languages is that they do not come about due to their own logic, but due to the logic of the time. In an age of statecraft, there was a logic to using the language of a well established state with a reputation for being powerful and elegant. In an age of democratic capitalism, English is powerful. Now people are suggesting that Mandarin will be the next big thing because a state directed market economy will prove to be more economically powerful. I'm skeptical, not based on empirical evidence, but simply because the conventional wisdom almost always gets this stuff wrong. While international languages have their own logic, so do national languages. They provide for social cohesion and a sense of belonging. As they evolve and grow, they serve not just for communication, per se, but as a way of expressing identity. This is why larger governments have so often tried to stamp out local languages. It's not that no one can communicate the need for a cup of coffee or a loaf of bread, but that the state wants people to think of themselves as belonging to the nation, not just their city or province. While nation states can (often) rally people around one language, "the world" is not going to acquire the same sense of shared identity. Even if a lot of French people learn English, to take one example, they're not going to give up on French because they're citoyens, not subjects. I imagine that in fifty years, we'll still be speaking all sorts of languages. On the other hand, the English tongue that we take as the world's standard will no longer be the universal vehicle for international communication. The language we're using instead may be also be called English, however. Or it may be Mandarin, or Arabic. Or who knows? Maybe it will be French again, or Russian. The only thing I'm reasonably sure of is that it won't be Esperanto - unless Zamenhof's disciples turn their attention from the logic of the language to creating a bank, an army or a holy book. Edited by BartoG on 03 March 2010 at 7:29am 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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