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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| zhiguli Senior Member Canada Joined 6440 days ago 176 posts - 221 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Russian, Mandarin | Message 9 of 20 26 June 2008 at 5:02am | IP Logged | |||||
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I wouldn't worry too much about it. The course is teaching a kind of normative Hebrew (as opposed to "colloquial"). Even more up-to-date textbooks teach the same kind of language and don't bother to mention the difference. FSI does point out a lot of the differences and is all the better for it. From what I've seen it looks like a good, solid course and as long as you keep some things in mind you shouldn't have any real problems.
(If you want an example of a course that really shows its age, try the Berlitz Hebrew Self-teacher from 1953. The characters that populate this book speak almost as though they'd stepped right off the pages of the Bible) I took a brief glance at the introduction and some of the lessons and here are my observations: -The note about elision of א ע and ה and regressive assimilation tizkor > tiskor This is just as true of today as it apparently was back then, and something that other courses don't always mention (and tell you to pronounce א ע as glottal stops and ה as h) -Same with the rules that deal with ve- changing into u- and va-, they are a bit complicated and don't really apply to ordinary colloquial language, where ו almost always gets pronounced ve-. FSI mentions this as well. -Constructs and suffix pronouns are used a lot less in colloquial Hebrew, and usually only in very specific phrases but I don't see too many that would stick out as especially weird (ma shlomcha, motze chen beeinecha sound perfectly normal) -Same with short imperatives. These are usually replaced by the future tense (FSI distinguishes them as "stark" vs "gentle" imperatives but nowadays it's more a matter of formal vs informal) -Some outdated words like אווירון (airplane - nowadays they usually say מטוס matos) And some more formal words like היכן heichan > איפה eifo "where" האם ha'im (question particle - usually dropped) עבור avur > בשביל bishvil "for" אמור\אמרי emor imri > תגיד\י tagid-i "say" Using them might make you sound a bit stiff or like an old geezer, but there don't seem to be too many of these in the course that it would cause serious problems. I am not a native or fluent speaker, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. Though even natives will not always agree with each other and some with a more pedantic bent may find words like heichan and pronouncing א and ע as glottal stops perfectly normal (and look down at other Israelis who speak "bad" Hebrew - which is the great majority). It's always a good idea to consult with natives in any case when using *any* textbook because they usually teach an artificial and oversimplified version of the language. Edited by zhiguli on 26 June 2008 at 5:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Talairan Tetraglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6591 days ago 194 posts - 258 votes Speaks: Afrikaans, English*, Gypsy/Romani, Dutch Studies: Spanish, Flemish, Galician, Aramaic | Message 10 of 20 26 June 2008 at 5:35am | IP Logged | |||||
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Zhiguli: thank you for your insight into the FSI Hebrew course.
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| J-Learner Senior Member Australia Joined 6029 days ago 556 posts - 636 votes Studies: Yiddish, English* Studies: Dutch | Message 11 of 20 26 June 2008 at 8:06am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks for the help.
For myself I do not speak literary or polite English. That does not mean I cannot communicate and can not be polite. I can certainly read anything in English and not struggle anless I do not know anything of the background knowledge or specialized vocabulary. Basically all grammatical functions are know to me. (that I know of....) I just want to speak to people. Grammar and language wars hold little interest for me. (Not that I am accusing anyone of such a thing.) If I can speak to people then that is what I want. I would rather a course that uses the modern colloquial forms and does perhaps mention the older forms if they are used occasionally or in writing. But that will not be my usual speech - just as it is not the speech of everyday Israelis. I don't say whom (instead who in all circumstances) and don't even know what it is used for. I am not stupid - I just don't use it. I imagine a lot of them are the same. They just use the language in a functional way. What more could a language learner want? (Correct me if I am wrong hahaha.) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 12 of 20 26 June 2008 at 8:30am | IP Logged | |||||
What more a language learner could want depends on what the language learner's goals are. If, like you, someone (entirely legitimately) is only interested in functional communication, a lot of nuances can be skipped entirely. Not only rarely-used archaic forms such as 'whom' can be dispensed with, but even some features necessary for what is technically correct modern expression. Barry Farber wrote that correct grammar is like table manners: you can be perfectly functional without it, albeit at the expense of scaring small children if you go too far. On the other hand, for those who want to do things like write literature in non-native languages, or want/have to deal with contexts that are extremely sensitive to nuances, these types of considerations may be important or critical. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6243 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 13 of 20 26 June 2008 at 9:18am | IP Logged | |||||
Is 'whom' really that archaic? I just now tried using both in several different situations and found that I would always use 'whom' in writing, when appropriate of course according to the archaic rules. In speech I use them as the whim strikes me, except after most prepositions when 'who' sounds wrong, to me that is. I seem to have made up my own grammar: 'to/for whom' but usually 'against who'. Don't ask me why. But of course only when speaking quickly. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 14 of 20 26 June 2008 at 11:32am | IP Logged | |||||
It sounds wrong to me too. I wouldn't say "to who did you give it?" or "the man to who I gave it" -- I'd say "who did you give it to?" and "the man I gave it to". 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 15 of 20 26 June 2008 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, whom really is that archaic. It tends to be used in writing by pedants, and by people who speak English non-natively and were taught that it is correct. I've started spontaneously using it after studying a moderate amount of Polish; it suddenly made sense. Previous to that, I essentially never used it. The vast majority of English speakers do not. Even relatively well-educated native speakers often have no clue about how or when to use 'whom' correctly. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Talairan Tetraglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6591 days ago 194 posts - 258 votes Speaks: Afrikaans, English*, Gypsy/Romani, Dutch Studies: Spanish, Flemish, Galician, Aramaic | Message 16 of 20 26 June 2008 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I use "whom" regularly both in writing and speaking, and find the construction "to who" to be very strange. I guess I must be archaic *sigh*.
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