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Hardest part about Russian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes  Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 9 of 29 08 May 2009 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Here is another thing that can be confusing about Russian: How people address each other! This is definitely different to Western Europe, and I don't quite understand what the rules are.
Every regular name seems to have lots of nicknames that are used almost as a rule (although I don't know what the rules is!). For example Jekaterina, Katya, Katyusha are the same name, and people with this name seem to be using all three at the same time! Usage of patronymics can be confusing too: It's hard to remember two "names" of a person. When should patronymics be used? Should foreigners use them? Is it rude to forget them? What do people do if they can't remember it? In films, people are almost never using the word "gaspadin" which is always mentioned in text books... Instead, so far as I can tell, they are using the full name of the person, or sometimes even "tavarisch" which I would have thought would be an outdated word. The whole situation with names and how to address people in Russia is quite complicated to a Westerner. Russian text book makers ought to include a special section about it actually. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5792 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 10 of 29 08 May 2009 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
cordelia0507
In the past the letter "ё" often replaces with "е" for simplifying typesetter's work. Now this letter replaces with "е" usually from force of habit. I myself always use "ё" where it needs.
When you speak English or another foreign language, you can use the name only. But when you speak Russian addressing to an unfamiliar people, or to a chief, or to an older people etc, usually you must use the name and the patronymic. For example, if you want address to Putin :) , you must say "Владимир Владимирович", not "Владимир". The near friend of Putin, his wife etc may address "Владимир", but only in unofficial situation. About nicknames the situation is like English and other languages, for example: Thomas - Tom - Tommy; Владимир - Володя - Вова. Of course, it is need to memorize names and nicknames, but it isn't real problem. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| SamD Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6659 days ago 823 posts - 987 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French Studies: Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 11 of 29 08 May 2009 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I tried Russian some years ago, and palatalization and the case system were my biggest challenges.
In the meantime, I have studied German with some success and I think that if I were to go back to Russian, the case system wouldn't be so tough. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Russianbear Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6775 days ago 358 posts - 422 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, Ukrainian Studies: Spanish | Message 12 of 29 08 May 2009 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Like SII said, it isn't that much different from English, where one can be William or Bill or Billy, etc. Katya isn't really a nickname, it is more like the actual name of a person, because that is how the closest people (family, friends, etc) would usually call her. And Yekaterina is more like the "official" name that is to be used in documents, official situations, etc.
I think foreigners can get away with not using patronymics, but if you don't use them, in certain situations it may highlight your non-Russianness as much as a thick accent would. Still, as your Russian improves you will probably get used to patronymics, so it won't be such a big deal to remember/use them anymore.
Yeah, one should probably avoid calling people "gaspadin". It sounds rather pompous. And yes, even, "tavarisch" is better and is used more often - and at least it is gender neutral - but I don't know if I would recommend using "tavarisch", either. Basically, the whole "gaspadin" vs. "tavarisch" thing is rather political, and you never know what a person may prefer. Some people may object to being called "tavarisch" and some may object to being called "gaspadin", but while many don't mind being called "tavarisch", I can't think of many people who would want to be called "gaspadin". Edited by Russianbear on 08 May 2009 at 8:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Tiberius Diglot Groupie Moldova lawinmoldova.blogspoRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6288 days ago 70 posts - 85 votes Studies: Romanian, Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 13 of 29 08 May 2009 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I want to add some remarks about the ways to address people in Russian.
First, you should definitely avoid "tovarish". It's not just outdated. It was the main form of addressing people during the Soviet times. Today it's very rarely used. So, you can say "tovarish" only if you want to sound as having some nostalgic feelings about the Communist past. But be prepared even for a rude answer to "tovarish"... As to "gospodin", it's absolutely acceptable when you use it for formal greetings or addressing together with the last name of a person, e.g. "gospodin Putin" (an exact equivalent to "Mr Putin"). But avoid using "gospodin" in less formal situations and without the last name. For a less formal addressing but still very polite and showing respect to a person, you should learn using patronymic. There's no way to avoid it in Russian, as it is a form accepted and used every day by all native Russian speakers. I would like to add a couple of words about neutral addressings in Russian, when you wish to address a person without indicating one's name (like Sir or Madam in English). Before the October Revolution in 1917 there were excellent words used in Russia to address people. They were "сударь" ("sudar'"; an equivalent to Sir in English), "сударыня" ("sudarynia"; for Madam) and "барышня" ("baryshnia"; for Miss). These forms were lost in the Soviet times and replaced with "tovarish" (translated as "Comrade") and "grajdanin"/"grajdanka" ("citizen" in English). So, these were officially accepted forms at that time. In every days life there were not always used, and very often replaced by "mujchina" and "jenshina" ("man" and "woman"). It may sound very rude for people from other countries, but it is a form still widely used in Russia and some post-Soviet republics where people still often talk to each other in Russian. So, don't be surprised when being in Russia you are addressed with the words that in English literally mean "MAN" or "WOMAN". You should not regard it as an offense as it is a common (though I personally think - absolutely tactless) way to address people in Russia... 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Russianbear Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6775 days ago 358 posts - 422 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, Ukrainian Studies: Spanish | Message 14 of 29 08 May 2009 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That isn't any more true than saying you can say "gospodin" only if you want to sound like a serf addressing your master. :)
I doubt the average reaction would be any less rude as if you addressed them as "gospodin".
"Gospodin Putin" is NOT an exact equivalent to "Mr Putin", it is just an approximation. I strongly doubt the word is absolutely acceptable anywhere other than the highest ranks of politicians and some people in the media. There was/is an attempt to revive the word so that it would replace "tovarisch", but it never happened, as it never caught on. Edited by Russianbear on 08 May 2009 at 10:52pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Tiberius Diglot Groupie Moldova lawinmoldova.blogspoRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6288 days ago 70 posts - 85 votes Studies: Romanian, Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 15 of 29 09 May 2009 at 3:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well, as I've said, "gospodin" is not used without the last name. You can't say
something like, "Эй, господин" like in "Hey, Mister!" But this word is absolutely acceptable in formal language, in business circles, etc. "There was/is an attempt to revive the word so that it would replace "tovarisch", but it never happened, as it never caught on." Well, "gospodin" was never used in the same way as "tovarish". Instead of that such words as "сударь" and "сударыня" existed. And that was a great way to address people. Certainly, if you try to say them today, you would sound ridiculous. But that's the problem. Today in Russian there're no words to address people politely. This is in fact the Soviet legacy, that we call each other just "MAN" or "WOMAN". And that's terrible... AND: Mr Putin = Gospodin Putin. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Russianbear Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6775 days ago 358 posts - 422 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, Ukrainian Studies: Spanish | Message 16 of 29 09 May 2009 at 4:36am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I don't share your enthusiasm for the pre-revolutionary ways to address people. They were extremely flawed. The outdated words like you mentioned used to go up the social hierarchy, but they would never be used the other way around. So, they were little more than a verbal way to curtsy to one's superiors and they were discriminating towards those who were expected to use them, but who could not expect to have those words applied to them because of their lower rank/social status. In that sense, the soviet legacy of addressing people, is actually superior because those newer words were status-neutral, and, in case of "tovarisch", gender-neutral (while "gospodin" is neither). Edited by Russianbear on 11 May 2009 at 4:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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