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Response to past Pimsleur discussions

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Seth
Diglot
Changed to RedKing’sDream
Senior Member
United States
Joined 7223 days ago
240 posts - 252 votes 
Speaks: English*, Russian
Studies: Persian

 
 Message 81 of 148
26 July 2007 at 5:01pm | IP Logged 
Volte wrote:
Kugel wrote:

By superficial I mean not knowing anything profound. It's hard to say if people really know their own language. I certainly don't. Only recently have I tried to be a more careful speaker. I'm going through Charles Elster's Verbal Advantage(the audio and book), and I'm finding many problems in my speech. How many times do you see '10 items or less' at the checkout? How many people know the tenses of lie and lay? These are peccadilloes, and what I'm stressing is learning the verb system. Learning grammar by osmosis is a sure way to become part of the verbally disadvantaged masses.   


I'd say that every native speaker of average intelligence knows their own language. However, it basically comes down to a debate on prescriptivism, I suppose. I don't consider "10 items or less" to be more or less correct than "10 items or fewer", or other such variants. In my opinion, too much of prescriptive English grammar is based on Latin rules which don't apply to English, but that's another rant. Many others are historical relics, which are, quite simply, dead in modern English.

However, even if prescriptive perfection is your goal, I think that having a basic working knowledge of the major points of the language is a necessary prerequisite. I've seen no evidence that this is most efficiently done via a grammar as the primary tool.


Precisely! This is another example in the endless confusion between prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar. Anyone who writes a book about why "10 items or less" is ungrammatical is not understanding grammar in a scientific sense. This is really a quibble over language "manners."

Kugel, you certainly have knowledge of English. What you may not have is knowledge about English.
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Kugel
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6537 days ago
497 posts - 555 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 82 of 148
27 July 2007 at 6:28pm | IP Logged 
Seth wrote:
Volte wrote:
Kugel wrote:

By superficial I mean not knowing anything profound. It's hard to say if people really know their own language. I certainly don't. Only recently have I tried to be a more careful speaker. I'm going through Charles Elster's Verbal Advantage(the audio and book), and I'm finding many problems in my speech. How many times do you see '10 items or less' at the checkout? How many people know the tenses of lie and lay? These are peccadilloes, and what I'm stressing is learning the verb system. Learning grammar by osmosis is a sure way to become part of the verbally disadvantaged masses.   


I'd say that every native speaker of average intelligence knows their own language. However, it basically comes down to a debate on prescriptivism, I suppose. I don't consider "10 items or less" to be more or less correct than "10 items or fewer", or other such variants. In my opinion, too much of prescriptive English grammar is based on Latin rules which don't apply to English, but that's another rant. Many others are historical relics, which are, quite simply, dead in modern English.

However, even if prescriptive perfection is your goal, I think that having a basic working knowledge of the major points of the language is a necessary prerequisite. I've seen no evidence that this is most efficiently done via a grammar as the primary tool.


Precisely! This is another example in the endless confusion between prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar. Anyone who writes a book about why "10 items or less" is ungrammatical is not understanding grammar in a scientific sense. This is really a quibble over language "manners."

Kugel, you certainly have knowledge of English. What you may not have is knowledge about English.


Maybe using the example of 'less vs fewer' at the checkout was a bad idea because I never meant it to be anything more than a quibble, although I did say that it was a peccadillo, so there shouldn't have been any confusion. There are glaring grammatical errors in native speech, and there is no question about it. Some even suggest that, excluding the obvious technical skills needed for a job, grammar and a cultivated vocabulary is what advances someone in a career. I remember somewhere that CEOs and their subordinate executives scored higher on vocab tests than did professors, lawyers, doctors,..etc. I think it was some kind of Johnson O'Conner research.

Now what I would like to know is how the GIR can use an exponential model in a program that has over 1,000 different words. It would be impossible as you went higher up into the program levels. If the GIR is going to be tested on vocab alone, and I'm not even considering grammar, then there would have to be a cutoff point to where the vocab will be the learner's responsibility, not the program's.

The exponential model, which is based off of the memory schedule research: 5 sec, 25 sec, 2 min, 10 min, 1 hr, 5hr, 1 day, 25 days.

In the first level there are 4 intervals that the questions are asked. Say you wanted to have 15 questions. After each interval it would take 1:10 min to cover all the questions, assuming that 5 seconds would be enough to ask the question and pause the machine.

And, of course, there is the problem of questions overlapping one another on intervals 1 and 2 that are the 5 and 25 second markers. There are also other problems in finding what to add to the program between the 2 min and 10 min intervals and so on. Perhaps the day's prior vocab, which level 1 obviously couldn't have, could fit in between the 2 and 10 min intervals.

For the beginning levels would it not make sense to label the levels according to their contents? Why not cover all the prepositions on, say, levels 5-8? Does it make sense to scatter them all over the program in an unscrupulous manner? Naturally, prepositions will be scattered across the levels because they are so common, but why not introduce them as a 'family' on a few levels in a row, hopefully somewhere in the beginning of the course?

Edited by Kugel on 27 July 2007 at 6:51pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Seth
Diglot
Changed to RedKing’sDream
Senior Member
United States
Joined 7223 days ago
240 posts - 252 votes 
Speaks: English*, Russian
Studies: Persian

 
 Message 83 of 148
27 July 2007 at 8:25pm | IP Logged 
Kugel wrote:
There are glaring grammatical errors in native speech, and there is no question about it.


You have to be very careful with something like this. Once again, what most English teachers for example mean when they call something ungrammatical is absolutely not at all what interests linguists and others who study grammar in a scientific sense mean. There are certainly slips of the tongues, mispronunciations, and other various "mistakes" that occasionally pop up from time to time in speech. However, such things as using "ain't," for example is not a grammatical error in the most important sense of what it means to know a language. Rather, it is simply non-standard English that follows certain grammatical rules of that dialect.

Anyway, on to the more important part of your post. I understand your concerns with the graduated recall aspect of Pimsleur. However, to me, what is so great about Pimsleur is the Anticipation Response aspect. That is, the aspect which interacts with the learner and prompts him to form strings on his own. I have tried to look into a little bit of research which concerns this point, but unfortunately most of the focus has always been on the Graduated Interval Recall aspect.

1 person has voted this message useful



Kugel
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6537 days ago
497 posts - 555 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 84 of 148
27 July 2007 at 10:23pm | IP Logged 
Seth wrote:
Kugel wrote:
There are glaring grammatical errors in native speech, and there is no question about it.


You have to be very careful with something like this. Once again, what most English teachers for example mean when they call something ungrammatical is absolutely not at all what interests linguists and others who study grammar in a scientific sense mean. There are certainly slips of the tongues, mispronunciations, and other various "mistakes" that occasionally pop up from time to time in speech. However, such things as using "ain't," for example is not a grammatical error in the most important sense of what it means to know a language. Rather, it is simply non-standard English that follows certain grammatical rules of that dialect.

Anyway, on to the more important part of your post. I understand your concerns with the graduated recall aspect of Pimsleur. However, to me, what is so great about Pimsleur is the Anticipation Response aspect. That is, the aspect which interacts with the learner and prompts him to form strings on his own. I have tried to look into a little bit of research which concerns this point, but unfortunately most of the focus has always been on the Graduated Interval Recall aspect.


I'm not so sure if the Anticipation Response aspect is inimitable. Of course it isn't, but I wonder if the modern Pimsleur program is matchless in language learning in regards to the Anticipation Response, at least generally speaking. Other programs, of course, ask the learner to think before responding. For instance, a German course would have the user go through a series of questions regarding the use of accusative or dative when the action is 'crossing a border'.

question: How do you say," I hang the picture on the wall?"

question: How do you say," The picture hangs on the wall?"

Isn't a question, which stays away from repeating after the instructor, inherently using the anticipated response?

Edited by Kugel on 27 July 2007 at 10:23pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Seth
Diglot
Changed to RedKing’sDream
Senior Member
United States
Joined 7223 days ago
240 posts - 252 votes 
Speaks: English*, Russian
Studies: Persian

 
 Message 85 of 148
27 July 2007 at 10:41pm | IP Logged 
As long as the learner is given a certain amount of time to form an answer, then I would be tempted to say "yes."

Unfortunately, most programs that I have come across don't emply that method; or if they do, it's a very small percentage of the course.

What other courses besides Pimsleur that use something like Anticipation Response did you have in mind?
1 person has voted this message useful



Charles Heinle
Language Program Publisher
Newbie
United States
pimsleurdirect.com
Joined 6344 days ago
12 posts - 13 votes
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 86 of 148
30 July 2007 at 3:11pm | IP Logged 
The question of “lack of content” in the Pimsleur Programs has been raised. Actually, the “content” of the Pimsleur Programs is specified by the Method and is limited to the specified parameters. It is defined as the amount of essential structures and everyday vocabulary that a learner can assimilate and master during the 30 minutes allowed for instruction and practice. The learner is thus enabled to gain eventual mastery of each and every item, taking the item(s) from short-term to long-term memory. That’s why there is so little frustration on the part of the learner. The objective is not to overwhelm the learner with masses of information he may never get to put to use quickly and effectively. It is not logical to compare “apples and oranges,” or to compare a Pimsleur to a vocabulary laundry list program. We intentionally provide only the most essential parts of a language in each Pimsleur I, II, & III Program. Keeping a learner highly motivated is the goal, so that the entire Program is completed to the user’s satisfaction and pleasure.

Actually there are some eight pages of basic “assumptions” which cover the creation of each Pimsleur Program, which I will shortly upload to a website for everyone to review. I will be back later with the URL address to download the file.

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Kugel
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6537 days ago
497 posts - 555 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 87 of 148
31 July 2007 at 6:46pm | IP Logged 
I look forward to the 8 pages of basic assumptions that cover the creation of the Pimsleur Programs. Right now I'm compiling a list of verbs in the Pimsleur Hebrew Program.

Edited by Kugel on 31 July 2007 at 7:06pm
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Kugel
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6537 days ago
497 posts - 555 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 88 of 148
31 July 2007 at 6:49pm | IP Logged 
Seth wrote:
As long as the learner is given a certain amount of time to form an answer, then I would be tempted to say "yes."

Unfortunately, most programs that I have come across don't emply that method; or if they do, it's a very small percentage of the course.

What other courses besides Pimsleur that use something like Anticipation Response did you have in mind?


I suppose any program or text could be studied in a way that uses anticipation responses. Translating is in itself a practice of anticipation.


1 person has voted this message useful



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