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Response to past Pimsleur discussions | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| mcjon77 Senior Member United States Joined 6610 days ago 193 posts - 248 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Egyptian), French | Message 97 of 148 01 August 2007 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi Chung,
I don't think that the financial comparision with FSI is fair because it is free. Nothing can compete with free. Furthermore, since it is free, there is nothing stoping someone who was going to buy pimsleur from buying pimsleur AND downloading the FSI courses (which is exactly what I'm doing). You say one can acheive the same results with FSI and I completely agree, however it will take more time. I base this on the experience of myself and others with FSI. I have about 3 other friends who have used the FSI tapes for German, Spanish, and French. I also have 2 friends that trained at the Foreign Service Institue (they both work for the state department). While the FSI courses have VASTLY more content and information about the foreign language than Pimsleur and teach much more than pimsleur, I have yet to see one person who was more profecient speaking after their first 45-60 hours of practice with FSI than someone who did 45 hours of Pimsleur. Keep in mind that what you learn in Pimsleur is very limited, however you learn it extremely well. I will be starting with FSI right after I finish Pimsleur because I wish to gain fluency in the language. For fluency, there appears to be nothing better for self-learners than FSI, even at the prices audioforum charges. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mcjon77 Senior Member United States Joined 6610 days ago 193 posts - 248 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Egyptian), French | Message 98 of 148 01 August 2007 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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We can go back and forth about what is a better method for learning grammar. However, I think it all boils down to your personal learning style. I KNOW that the implicit method has worked better for me. However, I would not say that the method is the best for everyone. I am inclined to believe it is a better method for most people, but that is based purely on my own experience and observations of others who learned using the implicit method and those who learned grammar rules explicitly.
I do find it interesting that the problems detailed by Dr. Pimsleur that new language learners have in utilizing the grammar rules that they learned explicitly exactly mirrors my own observations of new learners who use the explicit rule based method of learning grammar. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6537 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes Speaks: English* | Message 99 of 148 01 August 2007 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As I continue with the review of Pimsleur Hebrew 1 I will make sure to write down everything, simple grammar explanations and all. I would've thought that 20-25 words in 3 hours would raise an eyebrow or two.
Take the inseparable prepositions: מן from; out from Think of the מ as a monkey. The monkey runs FROM you when you try to catch it. של of Imagine there is a man standing before two pictures, one a beach scene and one a mountain scene. He has a shell and has to decide which picture the shell belongs in. Since a shell is "OF the beach" he sticks the shell on the beach scene. כמו as; like; according to Think of Perry COMO, a famous singer of a generation ago. Picture him against a present day star and imagine one morphing into the other and back again while playing the accordion (according to). ל to; for; at; towards Think ל as a lion; the lion runs towards a prey. Think of a pair of lions. You see someone holding a sign with a picture of two lions saying, "TWO FOR ONE SALE" that reminds you of to/for. And ל for lions. I could go on. It would take the learner about 5-10 minutes, even less if the explanations were done in video/animation format, to learn all the inseparable prepositions, which means more time devoted to understanding the usage and pronunciation. I wonder if Pimsleur Hebrew 1 will cover them all. I doubt it even for level 2. While I'm reviewing I'm willing to give the Pimsleur Hebrew program the benefit of doubt before I give it up for good. After all, I had conjured up some out-of-the-box explanations for recondite theories, only to find out that moments later it was me being stupid. So far, nothing from the program is jumping out at me. The mnemonics were taken from: Crazy Herb's Hebrew Words Herb Fried AuthorHouse 2007 Edited by Kugel on 01 August 2007 at 4:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 100 of 148 01 August 2007 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yes, and no. I agree somewhat that the comparison isn't totally fair because FSI and Pimsleur are different in various details (not to mention the price differential)
However, each person has different levels of disposable income. For people where money isn't an object, then truly it shouldn't matter much whether you pay $300 or nothing. However, money is an object for a lot of us, so we have to consider what's the "bang-for-the-buck". Your observation comparing the levels of competency acheived by people using FSI after 45 hrs and those using Pimsleur after 45 hrs are indeed valid because Pimsleur goes over the same basic sentences over again more than FSI. The tradeoff is breadth for depth, but I'm doubtful about the marginal benefit of Pimsleur's approach of focusing on such a limited vocabulary and grammatical exposure, and uneasy about the implication that upon completion of a Pimsleur's comprehensive course, users will be able to "speak" the language. (true in a literal sense, but no self-respecting polyglot would claim that he/she "speaks" X after completing Pimsleur Comprehensive X since "speaking a language" (as understood when talking about yourself) often implies more than just being at a survival or beginning level of that foreign language.) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6908 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 101 of 148 01 August 2007 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't want to hijack this thread but as you're talking of levels I take the liberty of mentioning another thread, Levels of language acquisition, including a simplified chart of A1-C2 as well as the levels used in the Linguist method (both use a scale with six levels). Having done three volumes of Pimsleur for three languages, I rate myself as second level (at best):
I know a little <language>/You can travel and shop, and talk about familiar subjects. In yet another thread (New Forum Member Language Profile feature), Malcolm gave his opinion on where Pimsleur takes you. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| LilleOSC Senior Member United States lille.theoffside.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6690 days ago 545 posts - 546 votes 4 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: French, Arabic (Written) | Message 102 of 148 01 August 2007 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
Good point. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| dmg Diglot Senior Member Canada dgryski.blogspot.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 7010 days ago 555 posts - 605 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Dutch, Esperanto | Message 103 of 148 01 August 2007 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
Actually, "quality" can compete with "free". Just to play devils advocate for a second here, if FSI was $1000 and Pimsleur was a free download, I think this discussion would have a different tone. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| FSI Senior Member United States Joined 6358 days ago 550 posts - 590 votes Speaks: English* | Message 104 of 148 01 August 2007 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't. I don't view either Pimsleur or FSI as being worth anywhere near $1000, and if forced to choose between the situation you describe above, I would easily choose Pimsleur to acquaint myself with the basic tenets of the language, before venturing on to other means of study. For me, quality cannot compete with free at a $1000 to zero ratio. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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