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Response to past Pimsleur discussions | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Charles Heinle Language Program Publisher Newbie United States pimsleurdirect.com Joined 6344 days ago 12 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English* | Message 121 of 148 14 August 2007 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | ||
Hi Jon, In response to your two questions: Paul left no information – in so far as we know (and I inherited many of his papers) - that would lead me to feel that he intended the self-instructional courses to be used exclusively to achieve spoken language fluency. When he passed away, he had laid the groundwork and codified the “Method,” but he had actually completed only 5 courses. He left guidelines for a Level II, but he personally wrote only to a full Level I. He experimented with various systems and would have continued with the current system certainly. Personally, I believe he would have intended for this to be used as the springboard, to be used exclusively at the beginning, to acquire the basic grammar and learn to speak with a native-like accent. I believe he considered only direct practice in using natural patterns of genuine speech to be the essential part of spoken language acquisition. He certainly believed that spoken language acquisition would happen under the appropriate conditions. He knew that the traditional language courses and the typical classroom instruction weren’t working. However, after the initial acquisition, I’m sure he would have recommended transitioning into more traditional methods to acquire additional vocabulary, etc. 2. We suggest spending as much time as possible speaking with native speakers of the target language. That’s probably the best way to continue spoken language acquisition after the three levels. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6617 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 122 of 148 16 August 2007 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | ||
Use Pimsleur as a basic introduction to the language. Then get as much comprehensible input in the language as possible - speak with native speakers, watch tv and movies, read, etc. All courses and programs are just introductions to a language. Ignore the marketing hype about achieving "fluency" from a course, program, etc. - that comes only from extensive meaningful exposure to a language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| mike789 Newbie United States Joined 6326 days ago 39 posts - 51 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 123 of 148 20 August 2007 at 12:17am | IP Logged | ||
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Charles,
how fixed in stone are the Pimsleur developers about how the program works? From reading your previous posts I come away with the impression that Dr. Pimsleur himself was willing to make changes as he found them necessary since in an earlier post you wrote "... taking care to follow the original courses he wrote, including his own course Graduated Interval Recall Schedule (GIR) as he adapted it when he wrote his five original Programs— and not exactly as the theoretical one he had written years earlier in his fascinating Research paper". Dr. Pimsleur wasn't following the exact formula of his Research paper, and yet after his untimely death I get the sense that what he had left became crystallized and unchangeable. I write this as someone who finds great value in the Pimsleur courses. Having completed all 90 lessons of one of them I know I am much farther after 45 hours of instruction than I was in 2 HS years of a different language. However I have a few suggestions and was hoping that you would be a party that could collect user suggestions for the developers to consider. Since I don't know if you'll see this or respond, I'll just list a few suggestions. 1) add a review CD to every set of 15 lessons. New words and grammatical structures are introduced in a lesson and repeated over a few subsequent ones, then disappear. It takes but a minute or two of hearing them again in the future to bring them fresh to mind, but in order to do so one has to listen to a bunch of 30-minute lessons. Why not create a "consolidated" 30 minute lesson for each set of 15? That way a learner could invest 3 hours periodically and know she/he had reviewed more or less all that was already learned? 2) again touching on the issue raised in (1), why not put more chapters into the CD's? If I want to look for something in a specific lesson I have to listen to the entire 30 minutes, forwarding thru it until I find what I need. And woe be the student who accidentally hits forward or reverse instead of pause! Why not index them in 3 or 5 minute chunks on the CD? 3) how about listening comprehension CDs? The Pimsleur course seem mostly about speaking, not listening. I find that after the 90 lessons I am quite good at turning english into the foreign language (eg. tell me "the bus was late this morning, so now I'm late too"). I have hours and hours of practice converting english thoughts into a foreign language. Have gotten pretty good at it, actually. The problem is that when I try to talk to a native speaker I am quickly lost because I have almost no practice listening to a sentence I don't know in advance except for the brief dialogs at the start of each lesson understanding sentences in the foreign language. Why not 3 or 4 lessons for every set of 15 (in addition, not in replacement) where the scenario is reversed and they give you sentences in the foreign language and ask "what did the speaker say to you?" 4) why not a little more explanation of grammar? For example, when the past tense is formed from 2 words it an be difficult to tell from the tapes (which are spoken at normal conversation speed) if it is one word or two. Sometimes they break down sentences and say some of the words separately, but they never do this with verb tenses. So it takes a lot of work to realize what is going on. Would it be so bad to say "this is the past tense, formed using the same method you learned before with the verb X"? Then I would know not just the particular singular/plural and person they are using but the other ones taught previously. Edited by mike789 on 25 August 2007 at 10:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cage Diglot aka a.ardaschira, Athena, Michael Thomas Senior Member United States Joined 6623 days ago 382 posts - 393 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Portuguese | Message 124 of 148 25 August 2007 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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In my opinion Pimsleur has one great major failing. There are no transcripts to the lessons.
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| AlexL Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7083 days ago 197 posts - 277 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 125 of 148 22 November 2007 at 11:58am | IP Logged | ||
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I'd like to read the assumptions, but it appears the file has already been removed. Would someone who downloaded it or Mr. Heinle be willing to re-upload it? Thanks!
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| owshawng Senior Member United States Joined 6885 days ago 202 posts - 217 votes Speaks: English* | Message 126 of 148 24 November 2007 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | ||
I also wished the levels were progressively more difficult. Level 3 seemed the same pace as level 1. By the time I reached level 3 I felt I could handle a faster rate. I enjoyed the first 2 levels a lot and found them really helpful with improving pronunciation, but I felt level 3 was too slow. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| xtremelingo Trilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6286 days ago 398 posts - 515 votes Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi* Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written) | Message 127 of 148 25 November 2007 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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Pimsleur could use more content. Extend the program. Follow the same system, but make it longer and more comprehensive. I wouldn't mind that at all.
90 lessons to 180 lessons I am sure would make quite the difference. The problem I have after completing Pimsleur is I feel that something is missing or incomplete. For self-study learners like myself, sometimes I can put in upto 8 hours/day. This means programs like Pimsleur are finished quicker than expected and leave us nothing to do afterwards except for repetition of lessons (which is always good), but more and new interesting content does help motivation. There have been times where I have gone through all 3 levels of Pimsleur in 3-4 days (sometimes 2-3 days). For learners like this, Pimsleur is too short. I think language-program publishers need to do more research not on just the language they teach, or the linguistics behind language acquisition, but also the profiles of their learners and general educational/learning theory and practice. Teaching someone who is willing to study 30-min a day is considerably different than a person who is willing/able to study 8-12 hours/day. These motivational/time-constraint differences need to be taken into account, and the content and design in these language programs need to reflect this. I am more than willing to pay $1000 for a very comprehensive program, that gives me at least 200+ hours worth of target audio, thousands of pages of text. I want massive comprehensible input exposure. For me, I need something that I could do on avg 6 hours/day, 5 days a week, for 6 months (assume 4 week month). If we do the math, that's about 720 hours worth of study. (6 x 5 x 4 x 6). Yes, Immersion is great. But I am talking specifically about a course that has guided immersion/comprehensible input. Programs that are intended for 30-min/day are not for me, and the suggested pace (1 lesson/day) is a recipe for demotivation. I and many others on this forum come from educational backgrounds, where we are desensitized to long-periods of study, some of us can study for 12 hours+ with no problem. Sometimes we prefer long periods of study over short-periods. Some learners do have a higher capacity/stamina for learning. Many language-programs don't seem to address this, except for FSI and DLI. There needs to be something that is designed for a serious high-capacity learner that is learning language for a real professional or academic purpose, not just for entertainment/touristy/gimmick value. It's okay if it's pricey, I don't mind paying big bucks for quality and in language-terms quantity, since it's very important in terms of exposure. Edited by xtremelingo on 25 November 2007 at 12:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Asiafeverr Diglot Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 6341 days ago 346 posts - 431 votes 1 sounds Speaks: French*, English Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, German | Message 128 of 148 26 November 2007 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | ||
It wouldn't sell very well. Most of the people who buy these programs want entertainment/touristy/gimmick value. Since it is much more profitable to produce a mass marketing product for people who want to learn in 30 minutes a day than it is to produce a product for "serious high-capacity learner", this is what corporations focus on. It's all about greed and $$$. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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