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Response to past Pimsleur discussions | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| tmesis Senior Member Mayotte Joined 6647 days ago 154 posts - 146 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 9 of 148 12 July 2007 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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- Edited by tmesis on 17 February 2008 at 2:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 10 of 148 12 July 2007 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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The other time when we had a producer of a language course come here, things didn't go over that well.
Just before I joined this forum, I came across this somewhat nasty thread about expectations from producers of language courses. As a business and economics grad, Mr. Heinle's first post sounded to me like more of a sales pitch from a marketing student or the explanation from someone in public-relations. What put me on guard was his second and third paragraphs. It reminds me of those justifications and arguments used by marketers of any product - something along the lines of: "The user/customer shouldn't question the method (or cost of that method) that our company developed and should let him/her derive full benefit of our research. Better to do that than ask questions and try to find what works best for him/herself." This insinuation in the post is probably what got daristani, me and manny suspicious. The last bit about Pimsleur offering a money-back guarantee didn't help Mr. Heinle appear as someone who is genuinely interested in helping people learn languages either. If he'd read the posts here (presumably he has read some of those threads that analyze Pimsleur since this thread's title insinuates a defense of the shortcomings of Pimsleur's courses which have been discussed ad nauseum in this forum.), he would have realized that a lot of us here are looking to develop fluency in languages in the best way possible. This means that we're serious learners and willing to go to great lengths to get to our desired levels of competency and won't stop learning just because we've completed Vols. 1-3 from a set of Pimsleur courses. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6549 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 11 of 148 12 July 2007 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Repeating my thoughts on Pimsleur:
How do you suggest we become fluent then? Your program doesn't even come close. Or do you believe 500 words equals fluency? Expect to be criticised frequently if this is the case. You have focused on a very small (time-wise) portion of language learning. IMO, your research was awesome, and I love the Pimsleur method, but it just scratches the surface.
Totally agree. Pimsleur talks about needing 2000-2500 words for everyday conversation or something; forgot the exact words. Yet they only teach 500. This is a very shady advertising practice. However, if they had confessed to only using 500 words, I never would have tried it, and wouldn't have found my favorite way to start a language.
I find ths hard to believe. My old 10 CD Thai program told me the tones for every word, as they do for Mandarin. Did you actually try the programs? 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| manny Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6357 days ago 248 posts - 240 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Tagalog Studies: French, German | Message 12 of 148 12 July 2007 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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<< I frankly don't see what the big problem is. … he's very close to the line. >> As you said, he is very close to the line and this is a big deal. There are two major models of marketing: * learn what consumers like and do not like about your product in order to improve it; or * try to convince consumers that you have the best product. Q: Guess which model the original post follows? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 13 of 148 12 July 2007 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
By the 'big problem' comment, I mean that he has posted once, rather than a half dozen times (much less with the same text, possibly in unrelated or dormant-for-years threads, as some other language material developers have), and he includes -some- relevant material which one can reasonably discuss (ie, his criticism of piecemeal approaches), and to what extent his critique of comparing programs, and parts of programs, and programs for different learning stages is valid. If he reads the responses to this thread, which is likely, he should emerge with a better idea of what is considered acceptable for this forum. If he's willing to work within that, and tone down the marketing, great. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 14 of 148 12 July 2007 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
As no one has tried to respond to Charles Heinle's post on a piece-by-piece basis yet, here's an attempt to get a discussion of the points made going.
What do you consider the end results of Pimsleur to be? How closely does the modern incarnation of Pimsleur match Paul Pimsleur's methods and research? What are the major differences?
This is a valid observation, if a bit overstated - checking external references is sometimes extremely helpful. I've certainly experienced this problem.
Ok, taking as a given that these proficiencies are measurable: what level, stated in a -measurable- way, do the "instant conversation" courses aim for? What about level 1/the first 30 lessons? All 3 levels? How much does this vary between different Pimsleur courses for different languages?
Why is trying to compare learning steps in various programs pointless, from your point of view? What alternative do you suggest to inventing one's own composite, given that Pimsleur unarguably leaves one far short of fluency? I'd be surprised if you'd recommend only using another course, but assuming one finishes a Pimsleur course - what do you recommend doing then?
While each (good) program has it's own logic, the rest of this statement is a classical marketing tactic. This forum is aimed at language learning without receiving marketing; there are many other venues where anyone here who cares to can find such.
This is a good example of something which raises warning flags in this forum. It's also fairly irrelevant from the point of view of how good the program is; I'm sure everyone is familiar with absolutely useless products which offer the same guarantee, on the knowledge that most people don't use it and that they will still make a profit. I'm not saying that Pimsleur falls into this category; I think it's a useful program - but this statement does not help. My personal experience with Pimsleur and rebates with Borders a few years ago was rather poor; both promised a $100 (American) rebate would be given, which ended up not actually happening. I haven't tried the money-back offers. Edited by Volte on 12 July 2007 at 11:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6549 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 15 of 148 13 July 2007 at 1:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
I've gotten the rebate, but it's been $100 credit, or $80 cash. I wonder if we get a refund for not being fluent?:) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Charles Heinle Language Program Publisher Newbie United States pimsleurdirect.com Joined 6344 days ago 12 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English* | Message 16 of 148 13 July 2007 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I am an older citizen who has been in the language profession for more than fifty years -- and that’s a long time.
I am clearly obliged to the forum members I have heard from and to have been made aware of the areas of discussion on their web site in connection with the Pimsleur Programs. I had no conception of the situation as I now see it. My impression is that a great deal of clarification and mutual understanding can be generated on all sides by this kind of discussion and by an open expression of opinions, between and among the parties. You ask me not to waste time and to state my involvement with Pimsleur: I am neither a manager nor a stockholder of the company which is owned by Simon & Schuster. I am not on their payroll. My interest is that I have invested a great many years, first working with Paul Pimsleur (during his terribly short-life --1928-1976), and then, as an individual, working to build The Pimsleur Program, starting with a demonstration stand at the Harvard Coop for more than ten years, and then selling the Program to Simon & Schuster Publishers, in 1997. I am fully aware of how and why the program works. My wife is the Executive Editor, and I assist with (unpaid) consulting whenever asked. I also keep my hand in with a small, one-man Center for Curriculum Development, which attempts to assist individuals and a few small private schools which wish to offer a spoken-language program in their foreign-language classes with Pimsleur Programs. I plan to start replying to individual queries on Monday of next week. Charles 1 person has voted this message useful |
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