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Why don’t Asian langs have a "see" sound

 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages Post Reply
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Arekkusu
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 Message 9 of 48
17 March 2010 at 5:54am | IP Logged 
(shi, chi and zhi are basically retroflex equivalents of si, ci and zi.)

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egill
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 Message 10 of 48
17 March 2010 at 6:04am | IP Logged 
Pyx wrote:
egill wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Cantonese has it, e.g. 詩 [siː˥]. Don't be so quick to generalize to all Asian languages—there are a lot of them. I'm sure there are many more examples. =)


But is that really pronounced like that? In Mandarin we write 'si' for that too, but it's pronounced /sharp s/ + 'uh'. Maybe those symbols behind the characters answer my question, but I can't read them - sorry.


Yes.

Long answer yes, I know it's that way in Mandarin, that's why I chose Cantonese for my example. I've studied in Hong Kong for a few months and my native Cantonese speaker roommate who is sitting next to me just confirmed it.

Side note: Sorry about all the extra characters, I used the square brackets [] because I wanted to emphasize that it was actually pronounced that way instead of the / / representing a more abstract transcription. Unfortunately my obsessive compulsive side forced me to put all the extra stuff in "to be clearer". Feel free to ignore it, and this, now, too lengthy side note.

Edited by egill on 17 March 2010 at 6:05am
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IronFist
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 Message 11 of 48
17 March 2010 at 6:06am | IP Logged 
Pyx wrote:
do you mean initial sharp /s/ and final /ee/, or just the sharp /s/? The sharp S we have in Mandarin, but not s+ee.


I don't know what a sharp S is.


Quote:
retroflex


I don't know what that means, either.
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egill
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 Message 12 of 48
17 March 2010 at 6:21am | IP Logged 
IronFist wrote:
Pyx wrote:
do you mean initial sharp /s/ and final /ee/, or just the sharp /s/? The sharp S we have in Mandarin, but not s+ee.


I don't know what a sharp S is.


Quote:
retroflex


I don't know what that means, either.


I assume by "sharp s" he means 'ɕ' (the voiceless alveo-palatal fricative)
see here for an interactive flash chart that shows how to pronounce all the funny symbols. Just click on the funny symbol in question and it'll be played.

IPA Flash Chart

Retroflex means the sound is pronounced with the tongue "curled up" and moved back somewhat. Again refer to the IPA chart.

Pyx, as a friendly request, if you are using an ad hoc transcription system, please don't use the / / marks, they traditionally denote IPA transcription and may confuse some people. I spent a long time at least wondering what /ee/ meant, cause we don't have the combination /see/ nor /ɕee/ (/ee/ sounding like 'a' in maid without the diphthong) in Mandarin. Of course it might just be me, in which case feel free to ignore. =)

edit: wrote the wrong name, voiced instead of voiceless, doh

Edited by egill on 17 March 2010 at 6:39am
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Pyx
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 Message 13 of 48
17 March 2010 at 6:29am | IP Logged 
egill wrote:
IronFist wrote:
Pyx wrote:
do you mean initial sharp /s/ and final /ee/, or just the sharp /s/? The sharp S we have in Mandarin, but not s+ee.


I don't know what a sharp S is.


Quote:
retroflex


I don't know what that means, either.


I assume by "sharp s" he means 'ɕ' (the voiced alveo palatal fricative)
see here for an interactive flash chart that shows how to pronounce all the funny symbols. Just click on the funny symbol in question and it'll be played.

IPA Flash Chart

Retroflex means the sound is pronounced with the tongue "curled up" and moved back somewhat. Again refer to the IPA chart.

Pyx, as a friendly request, if you are using an ad hoc transcription system, please don't use the / / marks, they traditionally denote IPA transcription and may confuse some people. I spent a long time at least wondering what /ee/ meant at least, cause we don't have the combination /see/ in Mandarin. Of course it might just be me, in which case feel free to ignore. =)

Oh, I'm sorry, // was just a way for me to get around the more awkward looking "s" or 's' or *s* or whatever you'd write. I'll do that in the future :) Thanks for the link too!
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Pyx
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 Message 14 of 48
17 March 2010 at 6:33am | IP Logged 
egill wrote:
Pyx wrote:
egill wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Cantonese has it, e.g. 詩 [siː˥]. Don't be so quick to generalize to all Asian languages—there are a lot of them. I'm sure there are many more examples. =)


But is that really pronounced like that? In Mandarin we write 'si' for that too, but it's pronounced /sharp s/ + 'uh'. Maybe those symbols behind the characters answer my question, but I can't read them - sorry.


Yes.

Long answer yes, I know it's that way in Mandarin, that's why I chose Cantonese for my example. I've studied in Hong Kong for a few months and my native Cantonese speaker roommate who is sitting next to me just confirmed it.

Side note: Sorry about all the extra characters, I used the square brackets [] because I wanted to emphasize that it was actually pronounced that way instead of the / / representing a more abstract transcription. Unfortunately my obsessive compulsive side forced me to put all the extra stuff in "to be clearer". Feel free to ignore it, and this, now, too lengthy side note.

No no, that's fine and very helpful for people who have an idea about these things :)
Thanks for your answer!
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IronFist
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 Message 15 of 48
17 March 2010 at 6:06pm | IP Logged 
egill wrote:
voiceless alveo-palatal fricative


What I need is a definition of all those words (and all the other ones that I see used) because right now that doesn't mean anything to me.
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Arekkusu
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 Message 16 of 48
17 March 2010 at 6:41pm | IP Logged 
IronFist wrote:
egill wrote:
voiceless alveo-palatal fricative


What I need is a definition of all those words (and all the other ones that I see used) because right now that doesn't mean anything to me.

A quick visit to Wikipedia should help you clear that out. They are important concepts to understand if you care about pronunciation.


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